How He Went from Freelancing Into a 7-Figure Agency

The man who's sitting in front of me his name is Suni. And you probably have seen some of his posts on social. Chances are you love him or you were triggered by him. Or maybe you're both. Uh son and I met in person recently at South by Southwest in Austin. He's a globe trotder. He's been zipping around all over the world at Atomic Con and then he was just at con and then he came back here for VidCon. So he may be running on fumes. So we'll get the most out of the situation. But son, thanks for being a part of the podcast. >> Thank, you, so, much,, Chris. >> Yeah., So, here's, the, here's, the, first thing. I just want to throw it off just to kind of uh break the ice a little bit. I noticed there's a distinct difference between what I perceive your online personality as and the person that I met in real life. And I'll describe this and tell me if it's a fair characterization on the internet. You give a lot of hot takes. You you go on rants and you say, "Stop doing this." And you use semi violent language, I think, on purpose. And I I I can tell you know how to write because you you use words very effectively to to get people to have a feeling or sharpen their thing. And I think for a while now you've, been, using, the, whole, I, didn't, I I never thought of it like that. Right. So there's a couple things there. But when I meet you in person, you're like the sweetest, softest, like, hey, how's it going? Is everything cool? No rants and and very humble and and kind and generous and >> first, is, that, an, accurate, portrayal, of two the two sons? >> I, mean,, I, don't, know, if, it's, two different sons, but I most of the videos that I post are from uh either Zoom calls. >> Yeah., where, I'm, teaching, or, like, I'm, on a podcast or something like that. >> Yeah. >> And, I, think, when, I'm, talking, to somebody, you know, like sometimes I can get a little heated or like I could get a little passionate or especially if I'm teaching or something like that >> and, those, like, usually, happens, to, be like the best parts, right? Like most interesting parts. >> So,, but, I, I, don't, think, all, my, videos are like that. I think the ones that >> get, a, lot, of, views, happen, to, be, like that. So, they probably get on your radar more. >> Yeah., But, I, have, like, most, of, my, videos are not, you know, [laughter] not that fast. >> Well,, it's, not, that, it's, good, or, bad. I'm not here to judge, but I'm just trying to figure out. And maybe I'm asking more for me understanding how people perceive me as well, because depending on which moment in what circumstance you catch somebody in, you form an opinion about that person really fast. And that's both the good and the bad of social. So, if the algorithm is serving up this hot take that you have where you're coming from a place of high emotion, peak emotional energy, then they're like, "Well, that's son. That must be him." And they're not checking in all the time to see like, "What is the range?" Plus, somebody will say "Uh, he's a lovely human or he's a jerk. Uh, he's a dbag." And then everything else they see in their mind now supports that narrative whether it's true or not. So, let's talk a little bit about the evolution of your online persona and kind of them. Uh maybe before I do that I want to get into your background like what you do for a living kind of thing before you start making all this content. >> Got, it., So, I, started, as, a, web, designer. I transitioned from freelancing to starting my agency which is called Night Owls. We used to work at corporate brands. So we had some clients like American Red Cross. Pretty much most of the hospitals in New York um you know NYU Langu uh Columbia University Medical Center. We work with Spotify like pretty much corporate brands but now we mostly work with personal brands. So people who want who are like authors, motivational speakers that want to build their personal brands, we help them with their website messaging, their stories and things like that. >> How, does, a, freelance, designer, get, from starting from not a lot to being able to work with large multi-billion dollar companies? How does that work? I, think, for, us, at least, once, we, got, one big client it become it became super easy to get the next client. So like I always tell people like no matter what it takes get that one client cuz once I say you know we work with American Red Cross you know pretty much the all the hospitals just came after that >> and, they, didn't, even, really, question, us after that you know. >> Yeah., Okay., So, it, was, the, American, Red Cross that was >> Yeah., That, was, like, the, one, big, one. [laughter] I want to peel away for our audience here whether you're listening to this or watching this is we'll call that the prison yard rule. They say if you go to prison and I hope you never do anything to get yourself into a situation where you're in the prison but they say you go after the biggest toughest person because then you set the tone and we can understand the logic behind that because otherwise you're going to be somebody's girlfriend in the prison cell right you are. Sorry, we're going to just go there. But if you go on and take on the biggest client in that sector or that vertical, pretty much that's the best social proof you're going to get. And then by virtue of how we work and how we're hardwired as human beings, we we lean really heavily on social proof. Well, if son was good enough for American Red Cross, he must be more than good enough. Maybe you're even overqualified to work with us, right? So can you take me through the process that as far as you can tell how you got American Red Cross from your previous next biggest thing? >> I, guess, um, so, I, I'll, kind, of, go, over, the whole story from this this is how our agency worked. >> So, when, I, was, freelancing, actually, the first CL first project that I did let me go back a little bit further. So my mom always tells me >> hold, on, I, thought, you, were, going, to, go. So it was a cold winter night in Korea. where my mom and my father how far back we go. Okay, go. Sorry. He's doing his thing. >> So,, um >> like, my, mom, always, told, me, like,, "Son, don't start a business cuz you're going to lose money and you're you're just not a cut out to be a businessman." And it's because I when I was young, my dad paid us, me and my sister, $5 to wash the car. And I ended up my sister after like 20 minutes, she was done. She was out of there. But I spent another two hours just like cleaning every detail like with the little Q-tip, right? >> And, then, I, spent, the, $5, my, dad, gave, me plus I added my own $5 to go buy some air freshener and things for the car [laughter] >> and, then, like, things, like, that,, right? So son, my mom was like, "Oh, son you're like just not if you start a business, you're just going to lose money, right?" And >> that, has, [clears throat], been, the pattern for me throughout. And you know when I started freelancing, my first client paid me $1,700. And this website took me 9 months to build, like full-time. So, I quit my my $100,000 a year job. Now, I got paid $1,700 for 9 months. >> 170. >> Exactly. >> Okay., Just, making, sure. >> So,, I, mean,, at, first, I, thought, it, was going to take like three weeks. Yeah. >> But, it's, just, like >> but, but, I, wanted, to, make, it, perfect., And then from there, then my next project was like $3,000 and it only took me three months. So it's still bad, but >> hey,, that's, a, lot, of, progress, though. >> Almost, double, the, money, oneird, of, the time. >> Yeah, >> pretty, good. >> And, around, there., So, I, made, $5,000, in, a year. So I was about to like I ran out of my savings and I was like, "Okay, I'm going to, go, get, a, job." >> But, then, we, got, a >> Are, you, still, single, at, this, point? >> Uh, yeah,, at, this, time, I, was, single., guys down. Okay, keyboard. >> So,, at, this, time,, we, got, one, I, got, one email from this client who was like "We'll pay you $10,000 to do a website." This was a WordPress website that I could have finished it in like four weeks. And I actually did finish it in one week. Four weeks. And then it just kept going up from there. >> Mhm. >> So,, we, had, a, lot, of, these, like, smaller local like um companies in New York. So not like big companies, but American Red Cross was like actually, yeah, that one actually came as an inquiry inbound lead. And at that time, we had um this like rockstar salesperson who who was just like just so good at selling. So, he kind of cultivated the relationship. >> Okay. But I realized that to work with bigger clients, it's actually like mostly about the relationship and it's less about like I guess the work or something like that. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah,, that, that, was, like, a, huge lesson that I learned actually working from him. >> Um >> Okay, >> that >> I, got, lots, of, questions,, man., First, of all, let's put this on dates and timeline. >> So, how, old, are, you, at, this, point, when you've got this rockstar salesperson? That was probably so I I started so the first year was me just freelancing. >> The, second, year, was, also, just, me freelancing and then I went back. So I guess around then I was about 25. >> Okay. >> 26. >> Yeah. >> And, then, I, went >> What, year, is, this? >> This, was, 2006. >> Okay. >> Around, there. >> All right., Now, we, know, how, old, you, are. Keep on. So I did that for like a couple years and then I had a friend who actually was running an agency and he asked me to kind of come and partner with him. >> Yeah., So, I, actually, kind, of, paused, my freelancer business, took all my clients from the freelancer business and like bought it to this agency. And >> this, is, an, agency, called, Webio, and, it was like a small agency in New York that like I wanted to help >> Yeah. >> build., Right. >> Long, story, short, that, I, was, there, for two years. it didn't really work out because um >> like, he, and, I, just, didn't, align, at, all in terms of the vision. >> You, know,, I, can, tell >> I, already, knew, it, didn't, work, out,, but, I didn't want to let my instincts lead the conversation because of the way you said it >> because, I, don't, know., I'm, I'm, like, I pride myself on being able to see small micro expressions and the way you said it. And I'll just give our audience a clue here. So you if you're listening to Pod, make sure you check out the YouTube channel as well so you can see this. When the son said uh this small agency he said it like it was like disgusting in his mouth. Did you guys feel that or was it just me? You saw that, right? Like he didn't like them at all. So I already know how it turns out. It wasn't like Yeah. It was this really small agency. >> So, we, can, tell., Okay., So, it, didn't, work out. Personality like >> our, agency, is, small, too., Like >> with, this, agency,, it, wasn't, really, about the agency. It was about the guy. >> Like, we, we, just, didn't, work, out. >> Okay., So, two, years, later,, I, actually left to start my agency, Nightwall. And >> what, year, is, that? >> This, was, 201 10. >> Thank, you. >> Yeah. >> Someone's, got, to, hold, him, accountable. Thank you. >> 2010. >> So, at, that, time,, like,, so, GG, is, my, wife and my business partner. It was two of us. And >> so, somewhere, while, struggling, to, build, a business, making $5,000 a year, and then struggling to work out a relationship with another business owner, didn't work, you found time to find romance and get married. >> Yeah,, we, didn't, get, married, at, this time. We weren't married. >> Okay., And, actually,, like when we started Night, we we were struggling so hard for two years, like to a point where we were homeless basically because we had to rent out our apartment on Airbnb. so that we can use that money. >> Oh,, I, see, what, you're, saying. >> pay, for, like, our, office. >> You're, subsidizing, your, bad, business with renting out your space. >> And, then, we, were, like, sleeping, in, the office in the air mattress. >> Okay. >> For, like, 6, months. >> I, see. >> And, that's, the, moment, I, knew, like,, okay, she's the one because I'm like, nobody else would have. [laughter] >> Wait,, I, don't, care, about, marketing, or business or personas. I'm going to talk about the relationship right now. The conversation is going to take a hard turns. Who's going to jump the tracks? If you guys don't like this part, hit fast, [clears throat], forward, and, skip, to the next part. Okay? You're like she's the one, but I'm curious from what you think her perspective because we can't hear her right now. >> Why, were, you, the, one, for, her?, Because it's like, okay, here's a guy. He's going to, be, homeless., He, made, $5,000, a year. His last business relationship didn't work out. What did she see in you from your perspective? We'll confirm later if it's true or not. >> I, Yeah., I, mean,, I, I, have, no, idea. >> Come, on., You, have, to, have, some, make, up her story. >> I, mean,, she, must, she, must, have, seen something in me. >> What, do, you, think, it, was? I mean, it's also Are you Korean, too? >> You're, Chinese., You're, Korean,, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah., So,, it's, hard, for, Asian, women, to bring home a man who's like broke. It is very difficult. You don't understand how much heat she's going to have to take. And when she's like "I'm dating this guy. He's got ambition. Just watch him. He's going to make a bend out of that Datson kind of situation." That doesn't usually, that's not a rhyme that's repeated in Asian communities. It's like, "Oh, he's not a doctor, a lawyer. he's not living with uh this whole plan and this everything's worked out. >> Yeah. >> So,, just, give, us, find, out >> kind, of, what, she, saw, for, me, that, she, she actually liked that I'm not like just a standard um just 9 to5 like the fact that I wanted more than that is I think what she liked me but you're absolutely right cuz at that time we actually borrowed money from her family. >> Oh,, that's, so, keeper., You, were absolutely right. So she was Yeah. But I was like so ashamed because like >> Okay,, I'm, giving, you, a, hard, time., Sort of. But I was the same way. I'm going to confess right now. The way we were able to buy our first house in Venice is because my wife's girlfriend's mom at that time, we're not we're unmarried too. Uh she sent us um basically the down payment 20% for this house. And then I called my mom. I was like, "Mom can you help us out?" My mom gave us one of what her mom gave. I'm like "God, we broke. How is it?" So, that's a different story. And then I asked her years later after we got married, "Why would you ask your mom to give us $100,000 to a guy who you're not married to? Do you even understand what's going on?" She goes, "No, cuz I trust you." I'm like, "How would you do never never trust another guy after me?" Because that's not the answer. You have to be way more critical than that. But here we are. She's trusting you, loaning you money, and she she's watching that ambition. >> Ambition, in, your, eyes, >> I, guess., Yeah., I, mean, it, got, like, we, it worked out but it could have also >> for, sure, you, could, have gone, bad [laughter] >> or, you, could, have, just, been, a, really, bad business person as foretold by your mom. >> That's, true., Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, actually, she, actually, turned, out, to be the good business person. >> Yeah., So, what, so, it, worked, out, well because actually once she came into the business >> Yeah., That's, the, moment, we, actually started making money because in the beginning days >> got, every, like, GI, you, have, a, sister, you have a sister I mean you got a whole dynasty here what do we do there's there's more Chinese women out there you guys >> and, I, have, to, say, on, behalf, of, my Taiwanese wife who's >> ethically, I, guess >> Chinese, uh, you, got, to, find, a, good, one >> the, one, that, believes, in, you, who, who supports your work and can see that and I say behind every good man is an even greater woman because the single most important decision you're going to in your life is who you're going to partner up with. Whether it's man or woman, it doesn't really matter because you have to want the same thing. And not just for a little bit because we all know it's not that easy. >> Yeah., Yeah. >> All right. >> So,, actually, to, that, point, in, the beginning, what happened was I was like that like what my mom said. So, >> when, uh, if, clients, don't, pay, like, I wouldn't like chase them down, right? or if if we go over scope, I wouldn't like invoice them for the extra work and I wouldn't like we we had our rate at 150 an hour for the longest time >> and, we, we, didn't, raise, our, rate, for, the long time and when that's when we were struggling we were like we owed money to our family and we were like in the minus >> but, I, was, so, busy, I, was, just, focused, on working on the projects which is kind of like my I guess my talent is in the doing the work and she just took over the business side and I just didn't even pay attention for like a few months. >> Yeah. >> And, not, because, I, didn't, want, to,, but, I just didn't have the time. >> Right. >> And, then, 6, months, later,, I, look, at, the bank account and there's like $200,000 in there. I'm like, what happened? >> Damn. >> And, so, it, turned, out, like, she, raised, the price. Gi happened. What happened? >> It's, pretty, clear, actually, when, she raised the price. I'm like, why did you do that? like now like our clients are gonna get mad at us because like >> but, then, she's, like, actually, no, I, raised it three months ago and they've been paying they're happy with it. [laughter] >> They're, cool., You're, like >> exactly., So, as, and, she, was, she's, the type of person that would like chase down the client get paid. >> So >> so, once, all, of, once, that, side, was, kind of fixed like we that's when we really started making money because I think the work that I was doing was good. >> Yeah. >> But, money, was, leaking., [laughter] So, so that so that balanced out really well even and even now, you know, if if I'm if I'm doing a workshop or if I'm on a coaching call or something like that and I go over the hour like she'll show like she'll remind me and you know, so so I think that that's that balance really worked out where we have the total opposite personality. >> Yeah., When, you, said, she's, that, type, of person, would what you mean to say she's a responsible business owner? Yeah >> that's, what, you, mean., That, type, of person >> that, like, the, one, that, my, mom, would like. >> Yeah., Yeah., for, sure., And, I, I, have, to tell you that your relationship is uh I I think pretty typical of business relationships that actually do work. Well, I don't want to talk about the ones that don't work where there's a person and you have a a strength and the other person has a complimentary but equal and opposite strength and so you you make beautiful music together. So if you're both creative like maybe your previous partner where you guys just jam and you have two different visions and you're battling over vision where this is I believe the divide and conquer strategy where you can focus on being the best you which is a creative person who overdelivers and doesn't really care about money but is about the relationship which is necessary for front of house. She's back of the house making sure tickets are moving customers are happy and invoices are being paid and you're getting good prices on the produce or whatever it is that you're buying. And without that that then uh then your brain wouldn't be free to think about what you do and it would be dragged into paperwork and negative feelings and that's not people don't understand this. >> As, much, as, we, say, we're, going, to, be professional creative people we're we're humans and we have emotional sides. So when you're like oh that client's not paying me I'm and you bring that hostility and the bitterness into the work then the work sucks and they're not happy and you don't get referrals and we know how that goes. So it's better that you were able to compartmentalize and say front of the house, back of the house and you guys made it work. So congratulations on to both of you. >> We, call, it, good, cop, bad, cop. >> Yeah. >> So, So, like >> we, love, you., They, don't, like, her, as much. Yeah. >> So, once, it, gets, to, the, part, where, it client does get annoyed, then I'll jump in. I'll and I'll kind of like you like massage them. >> Yeah., I'll, make, them, happy, or, something like that. >> Now, let, me, ask, you, this, question., Have you ever worked with a like a business coach? >> No., You, asked, me, that, question, last time. >> Yes., I, don't, remember., That's, how, good my memory is. >> No. >> No. >> Okay., Because, and, I, want, to, say, that, on behalf of Gigi who's just off camera here is I I had to realize this through my business coach and he said and he helped me understand this. I want you to understand what your wife has to do and that she has to do all the ugly work. The work that you may not want to do or not capable of doing and it's not the fun work. She's the one who makes this work and she gets none of the glory and all of the blame. And it's a tough situation to be in. It doesn't matter if the husband or the wife is doing that or whatever your relationship is your partner. We have to understand that acknowledge that that they don't have a lot of power to control what's happening, but they're dealt they're left with a responsibility. That's a that's a heavy burden to carry. So he's like to me and I'll say this I guess to share this wisdom with you is take good care of that person. >> The, honey >> I, didn't, have, a, business, coach, but, I, did have a moment where I had that realization. Yeah. >> And, it's, actually, when, I, saw, the, bank account and we went from like red to black. >> Yeah. >> And, what, I, realized, is, that, she's literally the only person that could have I have a huge ego and I'm I'm pretty stubborn. >> Yeah. >> And, I, see, this, with, other, creatives, too. Like cuz a lot of people will tell me like, "Son, I need somebody like Gigi. I need, somebody, who, can, take, care, of the finance and things like that." And I'm usually like, "You already have somebody like that in your life. You just don't listen to them." M >> and, cuz, that's, kind, of, what, happened, to me. I didn't listen to her and I would be like, "No, you can't raise that price." Like the clients know and if you do that, the client's going to go away. You, know what, I, mean? >> So, So, I, didn't, I, knew, that, that, was, her strength, but I didn't like let her use her superpower. So I So that was like actually the game-changing moment where I actually even though I didn't agree 100% with her >> Yeah. >> I, had, to, let, her, do, her, thing., And, so, we don't agree. We don't look see eye to eye on everything. Like we actually disagree on a lot of things. But I think that's that balance is good. Like if if I had it my way every time, it wouldn't work. And I think if she had it her way every time it wouldn't work. So we >> So, there's, a, lot, of, times, when, I'm, like, I don't I don't fully agree with that but I'm going to let you do that because this is how it it has worked out for years for us, you know. >> And, does, she, say, the, same, thing, back, to you? I don't fully agree with that, but I'm going let you do that. Yeah, she's much better at than me at that. So, so and and that's where like what your business coach said like I think resonates with me deeply. I I was like there's nobody who's going to put up with me the way she has cuz every time I do something crazy that doesn't make sense or something like that. She not only like she would kind of fight back a little bit >> right? >> But, ultimately, she'll, let, me, do, it. Yeah. >> And, not, only, that,, she, would, support, me fully. Yeah. >> And, and, even, if, that, repeatedly, fails, she still will the next time. And I think like only you can only do that with somebody you love. Like I don't think you can do that with just an employee or something like that. And that repeated repetition kind of made me go like, "Oh my gosh." Like the reason why she was the best person for me is because I'm so stubborn that nobody can tell me that I'm doing something wrong. And that maybe that's why business coach might not really work for me because I'm going to be like, "Ah, you're not the Yeah, >> but, because, she, was, so, supportive,, like she made she pretty much put a mirror in front of my face and like I let you do it your way all the time and and it fails all the time and I don't say anything about it and at some point I start to see it for myself. I'm like "Oh my gosh, like >> okay, >> I'm, such, a, loser." >> [laughter] >> And, that's, kind, of, like, what, makes, me, I guess, you know, say, "Okay, I maybe I need I need to change." Yeah. So, like >> what, is, the, craziest, idea, you've, had that not that has not worked out because you said I have all these crazy ideas and they don't always work out. [laughter] >> You, It, has, a, lot, to, do, with, like, hiring people. >> Yeah. >> That, we, don't, need. >> Okay., And, then, give, me, one, very, concrete example. So we know that >> like, we, hire >> gravity, of, your, mind. >> Yeah., We, hire, like, three, video, editors. >> Oh, yeah., You, don't, need >> And, I'm, like, ah, we, ended, up, like, uh getting rid of two. >> Yeah. >> Um, the, first, in, our, agency, we, had, a, guy that I just I I liked him so much I couldn't fire him for years. >> Yeah. >> For, years., And, and, she's, just, like, I'll do it. [laughter] She's like, "If you don't want to fire him, I'll do it." Right. Like she she has no problem with confrontation. >> Um, things, like, that. >> Okay., And, so, who, fired, him? >> I, fired, him, at, the, end., But >> And, did, you, argue, back, like, if, someone's going to do it, it's got to be me? >> No., I, think, it's, gotten, to, a, point, at first, yes. I think that's why we kept him for a year. So every year like, you know, we have we have like a six figures expense going on without like getting anything from it. And at some point because she would just let me do it even though that's such a crazy thing, she would put up with it. >> Yeah. >> I, I, started, to, see, how, crazy, I, am. >> But, if, somebody, sat, there, and, like, argue with me, I think I would have just fought back. >> And, do, you, know what, I, mean? >> Yeah. >> She, figured, out, a, way, to, handle, you, and your stubbornness and your ego so that you would arrive at the conclusion in due time >> but, it, takes, a, while, apparently. >> Yeah., Okay., Um,, this, actually, turned into a GG appreciation podcast. So welcome to that pod and happy Mother's Day to everybody. I know it's not Mother's Day, but I just want to let everybody know it's not always the person that you see. There's always uh people behind the scenes in the back of the house operations that are underappreciated, that aren't acknowledged. And so, I just want to use the opportunity to talk about that because I do know both of you. Um although not deeply, it's it's great to have this kind of conversation in in in all honesty and transparency. I've had many of these kind of moments myself with my wife and and that's why I recognize the patterns immediately. Yes. I've just sought a different direction than the one you have. So >> uh, so, let's, get, back, into, your, story here. >> Couple, years, in,, um, you, were, able, to afford a Cracker Jackack salesperson who then pursues this client >> and, is, on, it, building, relationships, and then eventually gets you the opportunity. >> I, assume, you, had, to, bid, on, it. >> Yeah., And, then, you, you, won, that, bid. Yeah. >> And, then, you, did, the, work, and, then, that became the thing that changes everything. Right. >> Okay. >> So, once, we, had, that, like >> after, that, this, guy, would, keep, you, know going to reach out to this uh pharmaceutical hospitals and at that time like we were mainly going after like medtech pharmaceutical >> um >> because, that's, kind, of, like, what, are, the most profitable projects. >> Yeah. So he would set up meetings and you know like pitches with them and then yeah as soon as we say oh we work with American Red Cross like you can literally in the meeting you can see their you know their face changed like oh you know so yeah I I knew that that was like a huge part of why before that a lot of clients I feel like felt like they don't want to be the guinea pig they don't want to be the first one to take a chance like but once I they see that we work with a big client they're like, "Okay, good." >> So,, what's, ever, become, of, this, cracker jack salesperson of yours? >> Um, he's not with us anymore, but he's So we had a developer in our company for a long time. I mean, he's been with us for like six, seven years. >> Mhm. >> He, left, to, start, his, own, kind, of development agency. And this guy >> now, works, with, him., Okay. >> I, mean,, not, like, directly, after,, but >> but, we're, we're, still, all, friends., Yeah. >> Like,, you, all, arrived, at, the, party together and like, no. Okay. So, you're all still good. Yeah. >> And, I, like, that, about, the, relationship because this is another lesson for entrepreneurs is >> relationships, are, about, mutual, benefit and convenience. And if it's not beneficial or convenient for either of you, you should both have the freedom to leave. often lot a lot of times entrepreneurs what they do is they always feel like everybody is owed they're owed some kind of dying loyalty and you're allowed to you're not supposed to pursue anything you can't look at anything but they can fire you whenever they want so it's some kind of weird double standard so my whole feeling is if it's good for me it's good for you we should continue to work together and if you ever have a better opportunity I want you to pursue that because I never want to be the reason that you wind up not liking your life and your career so pursue it if you make good decisions fantastic if it doesn't work. Call me. Maybe there's still opportunity here. I don't know. And I've always like had these difficult conversations with people when they come into my office and I can tell they're all, choked, up, and, I, don't know, how, to say this. I already know what you're going to say. Just spit it out. Put it on the table. I'm going to give you a hug and congratulate you. And then they start crying. And I just I wish the very best for you. And when whenever you're through this emotionally, even though they just quit on me, I'm like, "Let's have lunch. I'm good." And that's how we should aspire to run companies and inspire people to do that because otherwise it's some kind of weird one-sided loyalty lifetime sentence and it feels really awkward to me. >> Were, you, always, like, that?, Cuz, for, me like I did learn that skill over time. >> Yeah. >> But, in, the, beginning, it, it it, felt, like somebody's breaking up like I it felt like a betrayal or something like that. >> Yeah. >> So, it, was, more, of, an, emotional, thing, but after a while like you know if it happens a lot you get used to it so you're like okay. Yeah >> I, I'm, probably, less, heart-c, centered than you. I'm less emotional in that way. Uh so I I understand I try to practice this um word I learned later some form of stoicism. Things are they what they are. It's all the stories that we tell ourselves that change the objective thing. The objective thing is you have a good opportunity. If I cared about you and I do why would I prevent you from doing that? And if I had a good opportunity and you're no longer a good fit, I have to tell you there's a better opportunity for me and hopefully you don't hold that feeling. I don't want them to get bitter if I have to let them go and so I can't be bitter yet. >> I, I, try, and, practice, that, symmetry, of logic, you know. >> Yeah., I, definitely, have, like, a, little bit of emotion when it comes to that. like I I try to be more stoic but yeah because that it happened not just in my agency but once I started like my community and things like that and I see that people that I'm coaching or like in the community leave and they go to you know like somebody else and I'm like but like you know after a while I'm just like yeah good for them. >> Yeah., [laughter] Yeah. Uh so I I think probably what makes you a a better artist than myself is because good art comes from strong emotions. That sense of vulnerability and being in touch with that makes you a better artist, I think. So for me, I try to practice some form of passionate detachment where I'm very passionate about doing the work, but as soon as the work is done, I'm completely detached from the outcome >> and, I, can, see, things, objectively., So when a client's like, "That sucks." I'm like, "I guess it does suck. What are we going to do about it? What do you see? What do you need to change?" This is how I try and help my friends like the people around us right now when they're dealing with a tough they say tough but tough client situation where somebody's not happy like what you do. I'm like it's just work man. This is what you're paid to do. You show up and you do the work, and, and, no matter, what, you, feel that's not about this because we don't get paid for our feelings. We paid to do the work and if they're upset >> first, ask, yourself, what, did, I, do, to contribute to this and work through that and if you don't want to work with them again don't work with them but always be professional and do the best that you can to serve the clients that you have. Seems like that's a part of your winning formula. You care, you overd deliver and you want it to work well, right? Despite your own financial misfortune. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I, I I, am, emotional., I, don't, know, if, I would call myself an artist or create like my dad used to always say, "Son like you're you're just not creative." And it's because even though I'm a designer. >> Yeah. It's because like when I was young, I would draw these like things, but I would look at photos and I can like make it look identical, but it was never like my own work, you know what I mean? Like it was always a copy of something. And when I started making websites, it was same thing. I would literally like take a screenshot of somebody's design. I would pixel by pixel like copy it and then I'll try to change a little bit and then I just figure it out. I learned how to design like that. >> Yeah., And, after, a, while, like, I, started I think because growing up I was always good at math and science more than like you know when people are when I ask artists like musicians or writers or whatever how did you come up with that idea they're usually always like oh it just came out of me I don't I don't know it just came out of me right >> and I I also see this like when I go to these events where where people are like just move and dance and I I can never do that. And I'm like, what what what am I supposed to do? Or like when they say just write like on a paper, I'm like no, I can't just write. I need I need like structure and I need to I need somebody to tell me what to write. And even storytelling like the way I did storytelling was also like that. Like design once I started copying designs at some point I started realizing like okay if I use this kind kind of color with this color it has this kind of feeling. if I make the font like this small versus like if I had this proportion in fonts this proportionate so it was like I I kind of reverse engineered like certain patterns >> and, that's, how, I, learned, design >> and, I, think, storytelling, is, the, same thing >> I, started, noticing, that, like, okay, like every story has this and then all the stories that I I put out that does well has has to happen these patterns and I just reverse engineer everything >> and, so, I, I, never, consider, myself, like, a creative person cuz I I attack every problem like it's like a science problem. >> Okay. >> Lots, of, things, for, us, to, unpack, here. I'm just do a quick time check. Okay. You are not helping the Asian stereotype right now. You're like, I'm good at math and science, bro. I'm not an artist or designer. Don't call me that kind of thing. And then uh two supportive parents like you're not good at business and you're not an artist. Like is there love in this family? I mean, how do Asian parents raise children that wind up to be semi okay? How does this even work? >> I, mean,, I, I, think, my, parents, are, pretty loving, >> but, they >> not, so, far. >> They're, Asian,, so >> Wait,, wait,, you, got, to, unpack, that, for the non-Asians that are listening. What does it even mean? >> Um,, I, I, mean,, I, think, Asian, parents, are a little more strict. Maybe they they you know, set a pretty high standard. Like my sister went to Giuliard, for example. >> Okay., So,, you, know,, my, my, parents, are not the typical Asian in a sense that like you have to be a doctor or a lawyer. They weren't like that, but they did expect like excellence, right? Um and yeah, I don't know, right? Let's try this, son. >> Because, I, want, to, talk, to, you, about storytelling. >> No,, no,, [laughter] the whole thing has been therapy, by the way. Um, let's try this. We're going to talk about storytelling. You have a gift for it, but why don't you tell us a story about what it means to grow up in an Asian household with Korean-American parents in New York? >> Um, >> tell, us, about, grew, up,, you, know,, you're Asian when >> in, New, York, >> you, know,, this, happens., Fill, in, the, rest of that for me. >> Stereotypical, what, you, see, because, okay, I'll I'll tell a very short story to kind of give you time to think about this okay? is I remember in our house it was very clear A's are what the standard is B's are tolerable C's are you're dead I never knew what that was because we could never even know what that grade was and I remember one time I think his name was David uh David Clay would tell me and I'm I'm pretty young here he's like yeah man I just got my report card and I got like a C average I'm like oh my god you must have got a whooping he goes no I got a new BMX Like I was like "So, you know you're Asian when your white Caucasian friends are rewarded with the dream bicycle that you would have to get straight A's for multiple years in a row to even be considered for." >> So,, that's, a, story. >> Yeah., I, You, know what?, I, don't, have, a story like that cuz my my parents weren't like that. >> Okay. >> So,, yeah., They, didn't, really, like, expect high grades from me or my sister or anything like that. They just >> That's >> So, what, what's, a, strict, part?, You, said they're very strict. >> Yeah., Like, I, they, won't, let, me, go, out like partying or like you know. >> Okay. >> So >> that's, not, even, a, part, of, the conversation, man. Asian parents would let their kids go out party. Forget about that. You can get all Give me give me something a little harder than they let you party. >> I, mean, like, not, just, party,, but, like they they wouldn't even let me go out and like go to the park with my friends. >> Okay., You, know >> why?, They, they, wanted, me, to, like, I, guess stay home and you know >> and, do, what?, Not, make, art, and, not, make money. >> Yeah., I, mean, they, they, don't, want, me, to like I guess for my parents they don't want me to like hang out with the wrong crowd. I I kind of like hung out with some bad kids when I was in high school. Yeah. [laughter] >> Okay. >> So, they, every, time, I, go, out, they, thought I was going to do so I'll get into trouble. So >> So, okay., Okay., I'm, going, to, rewind, the tape here in my mind. I use my language to describe your world, but now I understand your world a little bit better. I think your parents aren't bad parents. I think your parents are they just understand their child really well. >> Yeah. >> Your, mom's, saying, you, suck, at, business. It's like cuz you kind of suck at business. It's just an objective thing that she's saying. From the first time I heard it's like super judgy, like back off. You don't know that. And then your dad saying you're not an artist and son you're not an artist. Like what? Don't clam on the boy's dream. And you know what? Don't go hang out with friends cuz your friends are garbage. And it turns out your friends are not a good influence on you. So they seem to know a lot about you. >> Yeah. >> So, this, is, just, really, thoughtful, caring parents who understand the nature of their child, right? >> Okay., So, now >> they're, not, bad, parents. >> They're, not, bad, parents. >> Wow., This, is >> I, I, was, different. >> I, needed, a, little, bit, of, discipline, in my life. So I think >> Yeah., And, in, Korea,, I, don't, it's, not like here in Korea like they're very straightforward with their like you know if if you're like my parents will tell me if I'm gaining a little weight like >> I, just, say, right, away >> they're, like, [laughter], you, know, maybe you should cut down on the >> on, the, sugar, a, little, bit, you, know, like they're just straight up. So and I think that's kind of like our culture. >> Okay. >> In, Korea. >> So, you, grew, up, in, Korea?, I, grew, up, till I was 11 in Korea and then >> but, I, mean, even, here, you, know, if, you grew up in Torrance California which is where I grew up. >> Yeah. >> That's, you, know, it's, a, lot, of, Korean influence. >> Okay., So, it, still, feels, like, Korea >> pretty, much. >> Okay., Let's, go, to, storytelling. >> You, were, at, Atomic, Con. >> Mhm. >> As, a, speaker, and, you, were, at, Ken, that's speaking. You're here VidCon speaking. What are you talking about? Um yeah mostly storytelling uh sometimes personal branding but mostly storytelling >> how, you, should, tell, stories, of, brand >> I, there's, two, types, of, storytelling, that I teach so one is kind of to tell your personal stories and the second is the how to tell a story that makes people say I never thought of it that way. So those are kind of two okay two different >> let's, go, with, the, second, of, the, two. >> Okay. >> Let's, go, with, uh, how, do, you, tell, a, story where people come to the conclusion they never thought of it that way? It's a reframe. >> It's, making, the, familiar, unfamiliar unfamiliar familiar. Yeah. >> How, do, you, teach, people, to, do, that? >> So, I've, been, having, a, lot, of, trouble getting to teach people to do that. So I've been breaking I've been reverse engineering and breaking a lot of that down. There's few different things. One of them is uh there are two contradicting truths that everybody believes in and if you can point them out and show example of how they're contradicting then usually that'll get people to say I never thought of it that way. For example a lot of freelancers will say um I can't charge that much. Like there's so many designers who do what I do, right? On the other hand, they also say if I'll tell them like oh you should outsource that like no I can't I can't outsource this because nobody can do it like the way I do it. >> So, so, that's, that, those, are, two contradicting kind of statements. Yeah. Because if and and a lot of those things I started to realize, you know, the way that's related to actually storytelling is I started to realize this in my own experience cuz when when I was like freelancing, it's all right. When I was freelancing I was like, "Oh, I can't char like I can't charge that much. I can't I can't raise my prices." Something like that. But when as an agency owner, when I started hiring people, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, why can't I find like talent? [laughter] If if somebody walked in that was like they can do what I do, I would just pay them this much." Right. Right. >> So, that's, when, I, started, seeing, like, "Oh, I wonder if my clients feel that way too >> because, they're, shopping, around obviously in the same marketplace there I'm shopping around." So that's kind of when I started like raising prices. Um Okay. >> So, So, usually, like, I, think, we, all, hold these like two contradicting truths. Yeah. >> And, we, don't, know, that, we, are, until, you point it out to them. And then once you point it out to them, usually they'll go, "Oh, I never thought of it that way." >> Okay., Let's, let's, focus, on, that, for, a second. So you're talking about logical fallacies. >> Yeah. >> And, it's, because, we're, looking, at, the problem in one direction. We don't look at both sides. So hence the symmetry of logic. If you think this, then the equal and opposite must be untrue. And when you find out the equal and opposite is still true, one of these is true and the other one is false. So that's what we're talking about, right? So if you say like in your example there about pricing uh like everybody does what I do but I can't find anybody does what I do. One of those can be true because they're opposing ideas and you help people understand that. I understand from a coaching point of view but now how to turn that into a story. So that's the second part. I don't call that a sto I don't call that a story. Everybody else calls it a story. So I I just say story. I call that in my my book I call it myth truth sandwich. myth truth sandwich >> sandwich, because, I, basically, it's, like, a myth and truth with the contradicting example sandwich in between so I don't call that a so this is the thing right when I started putting out those carousels on Instagram where basically I'm doing I'm I'm showing two different contradictions >> or, breaking, myths, or, something, like there's actually that the example I gave is just one of the examples there are other ways you can do But when I started doing that, people would like DM me or comment and say "Son, can you teach me how to tell stories? You're such a great storytelling." I'm like, "What do you mean? Like I'm not telling any stories." >> You, know what, I, mean? >> Yes. >> And, then, like, Domestica, even, came, to, me and said, "Can you create a story storytelling course for us?" And I'm like, "Okay, sure." [laughter] So I did all of that. I personally don't think it's a storytelling, but that's what everybody else seem to call it. >> So, therefore,, I, just, call, it storyteller. But usually it's just an example. It's not like I just give them an example of a situation. It's kind of like a when you when a standard comedian tells a joke, it's like you ever notice how people in the subway do this? Right. So it's not a story, but it's like um example of a scenario or something that people will get. >> Yeah. And that's kind of how I do it most of them, you know. >> Okay., Well,, not, not, to, split, words, with you, but when a comedian does a joke that is a story, the good comedians, the best comedians, the ones that are most loved today are storytellers. They are highlighting. I know we we can get into that later. The old jokes is like set a punch line, set a punch line. They're not so much >> stories., They're, more, um, misdirection >> and, then, when, we, we, see, the misdirection, we laugh or we don't right? But in your case, I might not call it storytelling either. It's kind of fascinating how people see things and then they call it the closest thing that they understand. I think what you're really doing is teaching people how to write their thoughts. So it's more of a critical thinking writing course and writing for social media. >> Yeah., Yeah. >> So, it's, it's, a, like, but, maybe copywriting for social isn't sexy to people. So we'll call that story, right? Maybe that's what that is because you you you have a sharp intellect in ways of simplifying complicated ideas down into very polarizing statements and you're asking each person that reads your content. In my opinion, only one of these two things can be true and you have to pick. So in a way >> actually, that, that, that's, just, one, part. There are other cases where >> um, you, have, a, truth, and, then, you, have, an opposite truth and then the real truth is somewhere in between. >> Okay. >> Like, for, example, um, somebody, might, say um you know it's all about quantity right? >> And, then, somebody, might, say, it's, all about quality, right? But the truth is like some like like in on some level it's about quantity because you have like you know Jirro from Jirro dream of sushi >> like, yes, his, quality, because, he, only serves 10 people a night or you know he only serves this these dishes. So in that sense is he's focusing on quality. >> Yeah. >> But, he's, been, doing, the, same, thing, for 60 years. So in that sense he's doing quantity right because he's doing the same thing every day for 60 years. So I think in some sense, so sometimes I'm pointing out that okay, it's not this or this. The real truth is sometimes it's this and sometimes it's this. >> Yeah. >> And, you, know, Okay., I, I'll, give, you, a really good one. Okay. >> Okay., That, one, I, don't, agree, with,, but keep going. >> Okay. >> I'll, tell, you, why. >> Okay. >> Okay., And, we'll, get, into, it, cuz, So somebody had said in our pod comment the other day, it's like, "Oh, Americans not allowed to disagree with each other." I'm like, "No, we can do whatever we want, so we'll So, I believe Jurro is 10,000% all about quality." >> And, what, you're, talking, about, is repetition and not quantity. You're using an interesting term quantity to describe a period of time. He's focused on doing the very best quality for the longest period of time possible. Whereas people normally associate quantity with instead of serving 10 clients, the very best, they serve a thousand clients every single day, which is like some of those um boats, sushi boat places where they just pump out stuff and you hit a robot and things come out. >> Those, people, are, not, even, trained., They like have a machine in the back and it it shapes the rice. So I really believe that one >> is, he, is, the, standard, bearer, for, the ultimate pursuit of perfection. Very Japanese, right? So >> yeah,, if, you, want, to, get, technical. >> Yes., Sometimes, I, read, your, post,, I'm like, I'm going to get technical with you, right? I think that everything like writing, >> you, know,, like, every, post, that, I, do, somebody can disagree with me and it'll be true. >> Yeah. >> Like, there's,, you, know, what, I, mean? >> So,, you're, saying, even, in, that, there's, a truth between my truth. >> Yeah. >> And, it's, like, not, just, this,, it's hybrid. >> Yeah., It's, like, sometimes, it's, just, a play, on, words., You, know what, I, mean? >> Yeah., Yeah. >> So, >> but, you, still, get, people, to, say,, "I never thought of it that way." Because that's still true. >> Yeah. >> Yes., But, go, into, like, now, this, other example you have. So this other example is um people talk about like niching down. Yeah. Which I believe in. Yes. You like from my experience in my business niching down definitely helped. >> Um, but, then, there's, also, people, like Gary V. So like you know you are your niche. You don't need a niche like you you know and then there's people who talked about being multi-passionate and you know all of that right. >> Which, I, also, agree, with. >> Yeah., And, this, is, a, this, is, a, well-known concept of like you know like the whole T-shaped expertise. >> Yeah. >> But, I'll, give, an, example, and, the, example that I give is like if you look at Leonardo da Vinci >> he, had, he, was, multi-disiplinary., He, had multiple passions. He was >> but, him, being, a, biologist, made, him, um better at drawing uh like human anatomy like bodies. Him being a chemist gave him a ability to come up with color skin tone colors, paint that other painters couldn't >> right? >> And, then, finally,, he's, known, actually the most for being a painter. >> Yeah. >> So,, yes,, he, has, m, he's, really, great great at multiple things. People are only going to know you for one thing because people like to put you in a box >> right? >> So,, yes,, you, can, have, a, lot, of, talent, but you you're still only going to be known for one niche >> right?, So, that's, kind, of, like, I, guess another way I'll do it. Like yes >> you, can, you, can, you, are, your, niche,, but at the same time, [laughter] >> you, know,, you, still, need, to, put, yourself in a box. You know, something >> I, I, like, this, take, um, because, you're making a very nuance argument. I tend to be like, it's black or white. Get off the fence, pick one or the other, and let's move on with our lives. You're making a very nuance thing. And so I'm glad people like you exist in the world because I'm not for everybody. you're not for everybody, but now they have choices and this is wonderful and I applaud you for doing that. My argument to all that stuff is, yeah, if you're saying you're one of the most creative minds in the the humankind has ever experienced, go ahead Da Vinci. But if you ain't Da Vinci, you ain't Da Vinci. Cuz how many Da Vinci do we know? >> Yeah, >> maybe, less, than, five., In, the, existence of humanity, we do not know that many people who are good at a lot of different things and can put it together seamlessly. And that's why they will not remember your name. And Da Vinci's name will continue to reverberate throughout the annals of time. And so that's the argument. Like are you Da Vinci? >> Well,, what, percentage, of, you, Da, Vinci? 10% 100%? Tell me where? Let's have an honest conversation. And so my my general argument is people do more harm to themselves going very broad and never deep into anything. >> You're, talking, about, the, packaging, about what people ultimately know you for. Because you cannot over complicate things for people. You short circuit their brain. They won't remember you. If they can't remember you, they're not going to hire you. They can't can't refer you. They they can't do anything for you. And part of branding is creating repeatable stories for people so that when you're not in the room they're selling you for you. >> Right., So,, I, love, that, you, took, that approach because that takes that argument even if you even if you're Da Vinci, this is how Da Vinci did it and this is what people see him as. Right. >> Yeah. >> But, I'm, just, harsh, truth., You, ain't, Da Vinci. I'm sorry. If you were, you wouldn't be watching this. You'd be busy changing the world right now. Quite literally, you have no time to be spending on YouTube or listening to podcasts. I can't imagine you sitting there with his iPods, you know, like "Yeah, let's go." >> But, I, what, I, found, is, a, lot, of, people think they are Da Vinci. That's the thing. >> Well,, I'm, here, to, tell, you,, you're, not. Son believes in you. He's sunny side up. I'm Chris dark side down. So, let's go. >> No,, no,, I, agree, with, you., I, I, think, 99% of people are never going to be the Vincent. >> No,, you're, way, more, generous, than, I, am. >> But, the, thing, is,, I, think, a, lot, of people think they're they have the talent. So I when I talk to when I make content I have to say it as if okay yes you you might be that good but still this is this is how you have to do it because like most like I I think a lot of people just don't know where they are in the level like if most designers that I see >> there, are, some, designers, who, who, are like awesome but they think they're average. >> Yeah. >> And, there, are a, lot, of, designers, who, I think are not that great but they they actually like overvalue themselves. >> That, happens, a, lot. >> Yeah., That, is, like, um, it's, not, curse, of knowledge. It's a cognitive bias. People who know a lot think they know nothing and people who know nothing think they know a lot. It's the curse of the ignorant. They think they know more than they do. It makes them kind of sometimes good but mostly dangerous sometimes right? We know a lot of people like that in the media in, you know, very public spaces. I love how you're bringing nuance and looking at things very kind of openly. What I was going to say before was I think you're teaching copywriting, but I think there's a a deeper skill that you're sharing with people, which is how to be a critical thinker and how to have a philosophical mindset because that's what I see you as one who thinks about his thoughts and is able to write and share with the world so they they can have a different point of view. And that's very powerful stuff. It's very hard to do. I don't even think stories are that effective. >> I, I, love, stories., I, love, to, talk, about stories and storytelling, but what you're doing is on a different level. It's like you're a philosopher who happens to be using social media in a very accessible kind of broadcast kind of way that people can get much deeper thinking. Is that what you're teaching your domestica? uh not in my domestic course, but like hearing you say that like you just made my day cuz uh that's that's kind of what I've been seeing in the last year is that >> when, I, do, this, exercise, to, storytelling exercise in our community it more than it being like content thing or like you know marketing thing it helps the person who's practicing it more than anything like a lot of people say that >> um, a, lot, of, the, exercise, that, we, do, is like therapy. They say like, "Oh, it makes me learn so much about myself >> and, what, I, do,, what, the, mistakes, that I've been making that I didn't realize." Um, things like that. So, yeah, I do think it's like a lot of like critical thinking, personal development thing first and then like marketing and content second. >> We're, very, much, aligned, there, for, sure. Okay. I I'm feeling the heat of time. I think this is the beginning of maybe a multi-part conversation. Maybe we'll meet somewhere else in the world and we'll continue this because I think you've uh opened doors and I want to pull on more threads with you. I think it's fascinating uh to be able to have like an intellectual stimulating yet sometimes tactical and very practical conversation with someone who is a deep thinker such as yourself. So, a couple things. Number one is if people want to learn more about learning about how you think and how they can gain some of these skills, where do we send them? Um, I think right now Instagram is the best place. Sun.y. >> Sun.y. >> Okay., Go, there. >> And, I, I, really, appreciate, that, you, said that because like you you asking me these questions. It's actually because I've been kind of in this place where I'm figuring out like what am what exactly am I doing? Like it's not storytelling, but you know. So like you asking me this question, having these conversations, it's like really helping me figure out exactly um what is it that I'm doing too. But secondly, uh my website sun.co >> sun.co. >> Yeah. >> For, all, my, other all, the, information. Okay. You guys can go to sun.y. That's on Instagram. And you can go to suni.co to check out the rest of his offerings and how you might be able to get in touch with him. I'm going to ask you this one really quick question before we get out of here, which is this. Um, do you have a strong personal brand? Yes or no? And why? >> I, I, think, so., because the the number one comment that I get is I never thought of it that way and that's kind of what people know me for and even like even when I talk to people offline and they start saying something they'll be like oh I never thought of it that way and you know that that kind of became the running joke in our community so I >> well, it's, one, that, you, very, carefully engineered though you told me well I never thought of it that way right you did >> I, think, because, I, started, seeing, it first >> yeah, oh, I, They, gave, it, to, you, first >> and, then, I, put, it, as, a >> test. >> And, then, now, when, people, like, people catch them I I'll have a conversation with somebody and they'll be like, "Oh I never thought." And then they'll catch themselves doing it [laughter] cuz you program them. Well, that's very good. >> I, love, it., Uh, well,, you're, you're speaking my language again because often times we don't know the gift that we have to share with the world. And it's not until we put our work out there that the world lets us know, well, it's valuable. People often ask me like "How'd you get that nickname? how'd you get this? It's like, I didn't get it. They gave it to me. They just give it to you. So, there's yet another reason for people to get into their head and start to learn how to articulate their thoughts in clear ways that help people look at the world a little bit differently. And you've done a wonderful job. And so, they've rewarded you with this wonderful expression. And now that's become linked sun and this idea of I've never thought of it that way. So, do you have merch? >> Uh,, not, with, I, never, thought, of, it, that way but >> what, do, you, have, merch, with?, Yes,, you should. And I'm going to take a royalty from that. No, I'm just kidding. Just kidding. Everybody, calm down. It's a joke. Maybe. All right. So, I I wish you the best of luck. Perhaps the merch will drop in a couple of months and you should have that on mugs, caps t-shirts, stickers, and everything you can, right? So, when you're driving around and you see your own messages out there, you're like, "There's another one right there." >> Son,, thanks, for, jumping, on, the, pod. >> Thank, you, for, the, idea,, and, thank, you for having me. [laughter] >> My, pleasure. >> Hey,, I'm, Sunonni, and, you're, listening, to the future. If you've enjoyed this video, I want to remind you about Content Lab, something that I've launched and it's designed to help coaches, content creators, and authors just like you create content that consistently cuts through the clutter. [music] >> [music]