Ditch Networking. Build An Authentic Personal Brand Instead. 2025

How do you show up and give value through content without asking if you're also trying to pay the bills? >> Okay,, it's, pretty, easy,, but, I'd, rather have no money and be a starving artist then Matt has just voice, I think, the opinion of so many creative people I know out there. If you want to scale your expertise and you have knowledge and you are committed to doing the work I believe a can accelerate this. I'm better than them at every kind of objective measurement. I'm better than them. Why are they getting more opportunities, all, of a, sudden? On today's episode, we're going to talk about personal branding and we're going to go as deep as we can possibly go. And I have my friend and a person who coaches for the future. His name is Matt Essim. We're going to hopefully persuade him or nudge him towards why he would want to develop a personal brand. I have a different take on it. So, stick around. Sorry to interrupt the episode. I want to let you know that I'm starting this community where we're going to help people just like you, experts, authors and coaches to develop your personal brand. It's called Content Lab. So, for more information on that, just check out the links in the description. Now, back to our show. During our dinner in Dubai Matt said something that kind of got my ears perked up. He's like, "Chris um, this personal branding stuff is nonsense, isn't it?" Now, I don't want to put words in his mouth, so rather than me restate what he said, Matt, take us back there. We're in Dubai. It's beautiful weather, by the way. We're out on the terrace at a restaurant and it was pretty cool. >> It, was, cool. >> What, was, it, that, you, were, saying? >> I, had, a, few, glasses, of, wine,, so, bear that in mind as well. >> Um,, I, think, like, the, essence, of, my, point was attention for the sake of attention is worthless. I think that was like the sort of key thing I was trying to get across whether I said those exact words or not. That >> that, sounds, about, right. >> Yeah. And you were I think you were kind of mid telling me or it might have been Drigo or like I can't somebody you were just kind of saying about like all of the opportunities that were coming your way and like all of the all the stuff that was happening for you and a lot of it you were crediting to having a big following, right? And having a big personal brand. >> Yeah., Um,, and, you, were, talking, about things. I think the thing that like triggered me was like you were talking about ways to get more attention, to get yourself out of there. And to me, it felt a little bit like the kind of big brother, generation., I, don't, know if, you guys have that in >> Oh,, yeah. >> the, States,, but, like, this, thing, where, um people will do anything to be famous. Like they don't care. They'll go into a room and put cameras on themselves or whatever. And I think that kind of like triggered a part of maybe me which was like I couldn't think of anything worse. Like I'd rather have no money and be a starving artist than, you know, be on camera in front of a million people doing stupid stuff for the sake of being famous. Right. Let's pause it right there. I think this is a great place for us to begin what I hope to be as an ongoing series as we dive into this because Matt has just voiced, I think the opinion of so many creative people I know out there. They'd rather be starving in pursuit of their art and the craft. Uh to be shilling themselves, to be representing themselves in some artificial way with cameras all around them, the pursuit of fame or notoriety for the sake of it being a pretty hollow pursuit. And I would agree with that general um statement, but that's not what we're doing here. >> Yeah. >> But, this, is, good, because, so, many, people are going to hear this. So if you are a person who is an entrepreneur, an artist, a creator, a coach, um a strategist, a consultant, uh some some service professional and you have a a deep well of experience. You're good at what you do, then this may be an episode for you for you to see where you net out on, this., So, I'm, going to, ask, you, to listen with an open heart, a curious mind, and allow the conversation to go wherever it goes. I'm not only saying this to our listener, I'm also saying this to Matthew or Matt. Now, the funny thing is prior to this conversation in Dubai and and maybe you're all wondering like what are they doing on a terrace in Dubai in January. The reason why is we're both at the 1 billion follower summit. Matt lives full-time part-time in Dubai and we also met in charge prior to that where I was speaking on something else and there you met me in my villa and we t talking and sharing some dates and walnuts. Um that's a local thing and we were just talking about like the point of personal brand. and you're like, maybe I need to do this. What are the next steps? And so first I want to tackle the mindset. So today the focus is all on mindset and our belief systems because getting into tactics, what we can do, it won't really matter if you're not really bought in. So, if you're ever curious, this is the episode made specifically for you. Now let's get into it. Okay. Now, a across the world, there are very talented people in very different disciplines. And you've probably wondered to yourself, why aren't I getting the opportunities that Mary or Joe or Bobby are getting? I'm better than them at every kind of objective uh like objective measurement. I'm better than them. I'm I'm more articulate. I have a better body of work. I have greater experience. My team's bigger. We do bigger revenue. We work with bigger clients and bigger projects for bigger budgets. We're more profitable. Why are they, getting, more, opportunities, all, of a sudden? And then what you used to be able to say like they're getting like you, have, better, clients, and, all, of a sudden you see it slip the slider moves and now they're getting the better opportunities. They're speaking on stages that you're attending. They're networking with the people that you've read books of. Something has happened and we're living in a different time and space. So I think the the need let me ask this as a question versus me uh ranting on the soap box. Matt, you're old enough to have been in a time in which you were probably a working professional preocial media. Is that a safe assumption? >> Yeah. >> Okay., What, did, you, do, back, then, to generate work for yourself? Uh you can list anything that you've done. >> Um, primarily, networking, events >> like, in, person. >> Yeah,, in, person., Yeah. >> And, for, people, who, don't, understand, what networking events, what would they be like? So there was a really big thing we had in the UK called Glug and it was like this creative industries event where they would have like speakers and bring people in fairly big names, right? And so you'd be in the room with some fairly influ influential agencies and people and so it was like any event where I thought there would be either potential clients or um potential people that might give me work. Like at the time I was just a freelancer so like a bigger agency if I could impress them if I could get the opportunity to show my portfolio. Um, I would just try and hang out in as many of those places as possible. >> Okay., Did, it, cost, money, to, go, to, these events? >> Not, a, lot., Like, most, of, the, time, they were free or it might be like £10 a ticket or something. >> Okay., Okay., So,, pretty, low, ticket., And how many people show up to these things? Roughly, >> I'd, say, between, 100, and, 150, for, like those main ones, but I would do smaller ones as well. >> Okay., And, how, much, time, would, you, spend going to these things? Just the physical time there, not commuting time or anything like that. >> Uh, overall I'd say like one to two hours a week. Oh >> okay., Pretty, consistently, then. >> Yeah,, I, would, try, and, get, to, something like every week. >> Okay., Do, you, describe, yourself, as, an extrovert? >> I, describe, myself, as, an, ambbervert. >> Okay. >> Like, I, need, to, lie, down, after, those events. >> Okay., So,, you, can, do, it,, but, you, still need to recharge. >> Yeah. >> And, did, you, often, go, by, yourself, or, with other people? I'd often go by myself, but I generally knew people there. Like I knew if I showed up, I would bump into somebody. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> And, is, that, because, when, you, go, enough times, you start to become familiar. It was always held the same place or different places? >> Different, places., Yeah., Yeah., Yeah., But you >> and, I, just, knew, that, it, attracted, like those kind of people. So >> yeah,, if, I, didn't, message, anyone, like I'd bump into a recruit recruiter that worked in the space or somebody that I'd seen at a networking event before or something. cuz I was always pretty confident there'd be people there that I knew. >> Okay., And, did, you, have, as, an, ambiver, did you develop c certain skills that will allow you to talk to strangers? >> Yeah,, a, very, particular, set, of, skills. Um, yeah, I did. I did. Um I think the biggest thing that I developed was the ability to figure out what people needed, like what was important to them. took me a while because I I would be that person who just went to the networking event and someone says, "What do you do?" And you rant for like 20 minutes about what you do and how you help people and you kind of see the their eyes glaze over. And I think what I learned after a few years was that people don't actually care that much about what you do unless it relates to them in some way. So I would typically have like a very short sort of 30 second this is what I do but then I would start asking them questions and even if they weren't an ideal client I would think about ways that I could kind of deliver value so that I was somebody that showed up in their network as in their mind like this guy's valuable is going to introduce me to someone or he's going to send me a book or a resource or something. So you you had a net positive experience doing this? >> I, would, say, so., Yeah., Well,, before COVID, like all of my business was offline pretty much. I didn't really have an online presence. >> Right., So,, this, is, a, place, for, you, to, um have community, learn from influential people, to be associated, and to also develop leads for opportunities. Yes. >> Yeah., Basically., Yeah. >> Okay., Do, you, still, go, to, these, things? M not so much. No. How come? >> I, just, kind, of, I'm, a, bit, more, choosy about who I spend my time with and where I spend my time, I guess. And I I mean, I do like I'm in Barcelona right now. My client, one of my clients is running an event tomorrow night. I'm going to that, but it's more to support him. Um, but there's like a marketing meetup which I'm going along for, but it's not I don't really see as like a business opportunity for me. It's more like a personal who do I get to know. Um, but I don't feel like I need to go to those networking events anymore to get clients. >> So,, they, it's, stopped, serving, the utility for you. >> I, think, so., Yeah. >> Okay., So,, what's, replaced, it? >> Um,, my, online, presence,, I, guess. Building a bit of a LinkedIn following. >> You, you, may, be, uh, making, your, own argument for for me. >> Okay., Right., Right. >> So,, all, I'm, doing, is, um, for, people, who are listening, I'm just asking them a series of questions. Now, uh channeling my introverted creative people, the idea of going to a weekly event for two hours with people you don't know is so scary they wouldn't even do it or they would do it and they would just stay in the corner and go home like say that was worthless., and, they, may, be able, to, show up so many times before they like totally give up and say this is worthless because it does take some social skill, some EQ to be able to be in a room with strangers and to eventually get to know them so that you're not being annoying or weird. >> I'll, take, that, as, a, compliment. >> Yeah,, for, sure., For, sure., Right., Okay. >> So,, here's, the, funny, thing., There's, if, I were to abstract and and feel free to correct me where I may have made an assumption, but for sake of time you go to events because you're drawn by uh the ability to to network and look for opportunities and you're willing to have conversations, light and long whatever needs are whatever the whatever the moment needs so that you can hopefully meet people that can either set you up with somebody that can help you or that will help you go get an opportunity or introduce you to they can become a client or a refer. Those are important things. You might actually even learn something if there's a name person. So, sometimes, like you said there's a big name person. Um, your ability to connect and associate with them is important. You might take a picture with them. You may or may not but it's good to be around people who are influential and and we can learn lots of things from them. >> Yeah., I, went, to, a, few, events, where Steven Barley was talking and I wish I'd got a photo with him now cuz he was kind of a nobody back then and he used to wear this big stupid like big rim hat and, I, thought, he, was, a, bit, of an, idiot but now I wish that I had actually made friends with him. >> Okay., So, missed, opportunities, there, too. >> Yeah,, for, sure. >> Yeah,, cuz, when, when, we, come, up, with people they usually keep us right because you were there when I was nothing and now I'm somebody and I remember what we did for each other. That's cool. Okay. All right. How do these people develop a big name? You think these name people that you refer to that would occasionally grace these networking events? >> Usually these specific events, I'll try and answer your question directly. um they were people who were agency founders or creative directors that had let's say 10 plus years of industry experience and they were coming to showcase some of the work that they were working on. So they kind of had like bigname brands in their portfolio um and they were just coming to share their experience basically. And how did you even know who they were before they came? >> I, don't, think, I, did, a, lot, of, the, time., I think I just knew that the speakers would be interesting because the person who organized the event was like well connected basically. >> Right., Did, you, remember, a, specific person that had a big name or like dude I got to go to this one? >> Not, really., Like, Steven, Bartlett, was probably the biggest name there, but I only knew of him because he was from Manchester and the talk was either in Manchester or Leeds and there was this like social chain thing that he was running and it had a bit of a reputation cuz I think he was like >> in, his, late, late, teens,, early, 20s, at, the time or something and he was working with these big he was working with the Nikes and the Lad Bibles and so his his agency was doing something very different to everyone else's basically and he had kind of he was one of the first people to really tap into this idea of like influencer marketing. Okay. So, outside of going to networking events, which eventually tapered off because you were looking for higher quality people to talk to and you outgrew that. That's just normal transitions in life. >> Was, there, anything, else, that, you, did, to get work? >> Agencies., So,, I, went, I, approached recruitment agencies and just bigger agencies in general. Like, I'd literally go and knock on people's doors and say "Hey guys, um I'm a freelancer. I'm in the area. if you ever want any additional support. Um, do you mind if I just like give you a link to my portfolio or whatever or just like start a conversation? Um, but one of my main drivers was like recruitment agencies at the time was a big thing kind of like freelance recruitment agencies and I just sign up with them. I'd send them my portfolio. I'd tell them my day rate and they would just call me up and be like "Hey, Matt, are you free for a week next week to come into this agency and freelance?" basically. And that was a really good way for me to then network and make contacts with the bigger agencies. And then what I would try and do is kind of, you know, make friends with the director or whatever so I could pick up the phone to him again and say "Hey, are you guys have you got any work?" >> Right., Okay., Um,, just, so, that, people, are not saying, "Chris, please ask this question." What did you freelance in? What did you do? >> That, is, a, great, question., Um,, a, lot, of things basically. I kind of was a bit of a Swiss Army knife. So, I started off in front-end web development. Then I moved into UX design. Um, and then I kind of ended towards the end of my say creative career. I was more of like a a marketing and design consultant. I suppose you would describe it as. >> So, each, time, you, worked, with, a recruiter, you tell them a slightly different story as you kind of move through the >> Yeah., I, would, just, say,, "Hey,, look,, I'm I'm doing a bit more of this now." And then I'd like try and get a project doing that. So when I was in doing front-end web development, I would talk to the designer and be like, "Hey, like can I work with you a little bit on this project and just try and get experience basically and just try and add those things to the portfolio?" And and obviously like this was more than a decade ago. This is 15 years ago. So at the time like web design and front-end web development were like very disperate things. They were like, you know, you had web designers and you had web developers. They were two very separate roles. >> Yeah., So,, were, you, doing, like, WordPress stuff? >> Yeah,, WordPress, stuff., Um,, some sometimes just straight up like HTML. Like one of my first jobs out of uni was building like HTML emails and stuff. So yeah. >> Okay., All, right., So,, the, second, thing that you did besides in-person networking event is I think you said inerson cold outreach >> kind, of., You, said, knock, like, literally or figuratively. No, literally. Yeah. Like I literally go into people's offices. Yeah. >> Okay., You, are, already, now, demonstrating a second set of unique skills because most creative people would never do that. >> Yeah. >> It's, too, anxietyridden., It's, too, like crazy for us to go knock on a door of somebody and tell somebody something and not just want to run. >> Yeah. >> Okay., Anything, else, that, you, did, that was significant in how you generated? >> No,, just, those, three, things, I, think., And the third thing was the recruitment. So >> oh,, recruitment. >> Yeah,, just, calling, up., I, mean, recruiters, it wasn't as difficult cuz they wanted people. So, there was always advertising. If I met someone at a networking event, they'd be like, "Oh send me an email, send me your portfolio, you know, is in it was a time when like front-end web development and everything was in in really high demand." >> Yeah., So,, from, the, time, in, which, you graduated from uni to you no longer freelancing with the day rate, how how long did that last? >> Probably, about, five, years., Four, or, five years. >> Great. >> Yeah., So,, I, think, you're, capturing, some part of the audience that listens to our our our channel or this pod. Okay, this is fantastic. Let's keep going on on this. Okay, cold person. Cole in person. Okay. Um All right. So, here's the interesting thing that I'm noting and and I think the people already seeing the trap being laid out. So, we we're attracted to people who are noteworthy and there's a lot of social proof that goes into that. and the social proof. When I say social, I don't mean social media. I mean like how other people see evidence of competence or expertise. So you're like, well, they're founders, so there's a title there. Then they have an agency. That's another title or label. They have a certain number of people working for them. They've been x number of years in business. These are markers shorthand or heristic for something else. And they have a body of work that you can look up and go on to website. That's pretty cool. But the one that was most interesting, the one that stood out was this young late teen, early 20s guy Steven Bartlet, who now is a is a phenomenon. But there's this word I wrote down, his reputation preceded him. >> And, this, is, the, business, that, we're, in where we have a reputation and reputations can be very slow. Like I always say to people, trust is hard to build and easy to lose. It takes a long time for you to earn trust. It only takes one f up for you to lose it all. That's why, you know, we're always skeptical about people. We're very guarded. So, you heard through the grape vine or through the mill, this young upstart kid, quote unquote, is doing some pretty remarkable things. And even though you don't know who he is, people already talking about him. Imagine what they would be saying about him now if you dropped into a place like this. It would be full of buzz. Okay. That's what we're talking about. >> All, right. >> All, right., So,, the, other, thing, that, you were talking about is well, I I don't do these in-person networking events anymore because something else is more powerful, more likely to get me in front of the right people, but I can do it at scale that doesn't nearly require the investment of time anymore. And that's well, you're like, I'm on LinkedIn, my followership is growing, but it's growing in the right kinds of dimensions in terms of being in front of the people that need that you need to be in front of to generate opportunities. So tell me again why you think social media is stupid. >> So, I, don't, think, social, media, is, stupid. I think attention for the sake of attention is stupid. Like I worry about the people who have millions of followers on Tik Tok but have very little respect and when they actually try and they have very little influence. I'll rephrase that. They have millions of followers but very little influence. Like when they actually ask people to do something people don't do it because they don't respect them because they're like selling their soul to entertain people. You have a lot of judging language in this. >> I'm, just, being, honest. >> Well,, you, know,, I, always, worry, about when people say they're being honest. That's almost like a blanket statement to excuse being very violent with their choice of words. >> Okay., I'm, being, violent, with, my, choice of words. >> I, think, you, are >> okay., uh, selling, your, soul., Like, I, don't think anybody's selling their soul. Uh people not respecting them or whatever cuz or they're getting attention for attention's sake. Now let's address a couple different issues. Okay. Number one, admittedly there are people out there who want to become famous and they're young people usually and they'll do just about anything to become famous. Like they'll wear very little clothing. They'll do and say stupid stunts. They'll play practical jokes that are not very kind. they'll do anything because they're just trying to figure out who they are in this world. And I I think they can do whatever they want. And the the test of a relationship and the stickiness of a relationship is when you ask somebody to do something if they'll do it. So they may have lots of views. They might even have a lot of followers. And Tik Tok is quite good at serving you content that they think you'll like. And there are a lot of younger people on Tik Tok mostly because of the the nature of how Tik Tok came to be. and they don't have a lot of discretionary income. They don't have a lot of purchasing power and all those kinds of reasons. And this was proven to be true to a degree when we when VidCon postcoid invited some of the biggest Tik Tockers to come to the conference because previously it was for YouTube people and they saw in what they prepared for massive rooms of people a tiny percent of people. there were more empty chairs than there were people in the room by like a nine to 10 ratio you know like 10 to one ratio so I think it dawned on everybody that number of followers doesn't equal level of influence necessarily right it's not always a causal thing okay so and and let's take off the category of of people who have no skill or talent chasing fame as a category as a blanket statement to all of social media or people who are trying to build influence online. So I think when I said you think social media is stupid, I think I was being reductive, but I was trying to mirror how reductive your thing is. I don't want to do social media or do personal branding because attention for attention sake is stupid. It's almost the mirror opposite of that, right? >> It, doesn't, have, to, be, like, that, because I think the people you and I look up to have a lot of substance and they've learned also how to create massive amounts of real tangible influence. Yeah, I agree. I think there are lots of people online doing it correctly. Like you being one of them and that's why I respect you and that's why I like being friends with you. Um, so I guess my concern is about how do I do it properly like >> okay >> and how do I not make that mistake? And there's other things as well and I'll I'll let you guide the conversation, but as an example, like you're quite introverted and one of the things that you always say is I want to create content that's so good that people know who I am before I step into the room so I don't have to go and make that awkward conversation like we were talking about at the networking events. But in a way like when people were coming up to you at the one billion followers summit part of me was like, "Oh my god, I'm glad that's not me because I don't know how I would deal with those people coming up to me and like feeling like they know me and I've never met them before and like that makes me more uncomfortable than just going into a room and nobody knowing who I am." >> Okay,, so, this, is, wonderful., This, is, not a one strategy fits all because we're very different people. Uh you can just tell by the way we sound and the way we look. for different people with different goals and missions in life. Um, and and my whole thing is I'm very socially awkward. I do not know how to work a room period. >> And, instead, of, learning, how,, I've, given up on that and I've just done something different, which is to become so well known that people will just walk up to me so I don't have to develop social skills. This works for me and it's working really well for me now. So, we all are in a way inventing solutions to our own problems. So, if you don't like social media, then you work the in-person networking events where you literally knock on doors and that works too. So, what I want to say to everybody who's listening to this is first of all we're going to talk about lots of ideas in our ongoing series on building a personal brand. You don't have to do the whole thing from A to Z. You can just pick parts that work for you and you don't have to do it as prescribed. You can you can change it. You can modify it. You can combine it with other ideas. But I'm hoping some of this starts to unlock what I imagine to be a lot of resistance around this. And we know this, this is an axiom almost to a point in which it's become cliche. People hire who they know, like, and trust. Know like, and trust. It's pretty straightforward. So before anybody can hire you, they must know that you exist. And there's a lot of ways that you can do this. You can do it in person, which is high friction, high effort. You can do it online, which is low friction lower effort, but still effort. And there's different levels of intensity and the outcomes that you can get. Just because you show up to an in-person networking event doesn't mean you'll meet anybody that's willing to give you work. Just because you post online doesn't mean people will just start following you or they'll give you opportunities. Both require a level of intentionality, effort and consistency in how you show up. Not consistency in the frequency of posting, but how you show up. Because we've all seen this and we've observed this about an acquaintance, a friend of ours, like I don't know who you are. Like who are you today? Like I can't recognize you. Not physically I can't recognize you, but I can't recognize you because you're showing a personality trait I've never seen in you before. So that that you know, trust is hard to build. You've lost my trust. So what we do is we just do this one step at a time. Get known. Hopefully people like you enough to try you or to engage with you and through that interaction online and in person they can determine if they want to trust you. Now in his book, Show Your Work Austin Cleon writes about this. To to be found, you must be findable. And I I think there's great wisdom in that very simple phrase. People are making it very hard to find them. And so you could be really talented. You can be very earnest in the work that you do full of ethics, charge a very reasonable rate for what you do, but you're like "How come my inbox is empty? How come I have no new leads right now and it's stressing you out?" Is because we have to master the game of being known. Now it's great that you shared this cuz all the things you did, I never did. So, preocial media, I I've run a company for many, many years pre-social media. And what we did back then was we had we had reps. I guess that's the equivalent to your recruiting recruitment agencies. And the reps were signed exclusively and they were very particular who they worked with and represented. And so you're as good as the company you keep. So they represent a handful of agencies who were non-competing sometimes and they would go to advertising agencies knock on their doors and show your body of work and see if they can generate something for you. And we we existed uh you with reps for like 25ish years for the almost the entire length of our company. We did PR. We hired literally PR firms who would get us press and they would send us copies of everything they got for us. We would also have an executive producer who was doing outbound sales and also doing in-person networking events. He would or she would attend parties, go to functions, opening screeners, uh do the wine and dine stuff. So, I outsourced all that cuz I didn't want to do it. We would take out ads. Uh, they were called advvertorial where you would insert into magazines and you would pay several thousand dollars to do that. We would take ads out in directories like Alt Pick or the the or the Blackbook. Basically, directories where advertising agency folks would look through to find who's who. And we submitted ourselves for competitions, won a lot of awards were published in design annuals. We would try to answer questions sent to us via trade pubs like shoot and ad age or creativity basically the magazines and the and the and the articles or periodicals that advertising agencies aka our clients would read. So we did everything in our power to be in front of the decision makers who were considering who who they would work with who they would hire. That was a lot of work as you can imagine. It was quite expensive and there was a layer of opakeness that I could never tell because we did this we got that. So the general consensus from my my executive producer was spend as much as you can, do as much as you can always because all those things were opportunities that would somehow manifest somehow. And as an agency owner, the person signing the check that was wearing cathin on me because I'm like, I I think since it's not your money, you want me to spend as much as possible, but you can't actually trace any of this stuff because it was untraceable. And this is how it existed for decades. So, I'll just put this out there for people who whether you're in Matt's shoes as a solarpreneur freelancer, or a person running an agency, getting work, getting known requires a lot of work. There is no way around this. There really isn't. Now, maybe there's one cheat code. If you're extremely good-looking, extremely charismatic from a great family, living in the epicenter of whatever it is that you do and your work is bar none, like the top quality work, you may not have to do anything because people will just seek you out. Not only are you good-looking from a good family, you're well spoken and your work is immaculate. Yes. And those are unicorns. they do exist and they they're like, "Well, this this marketing stuff is nonsense." And I would agree with them because they don't need it. But if you're listening to this and you're curious, there's a high probability that you need it. Or you're just you just want to like shoot squirrels with your gun because you're it's cruel to watch us struggle, right? That's all. Okay, Matt, you wanted to say something? I am interested in your perspective because I think there is one more cheat code and I think that cheat code is more relevant now than it's ever been because the world is so noisy with social media and content and that cheat code is basically borrowing the attention and the trust of somebody that has already built it. >> Yes. and you have been extremely generous with your time and your platform and your audience for me and I'm just curious of your opinion because the way that that came about was I think it was Mark who was in your team at the time sent you a copy of my book. So obviously writing a book gives you some authority but I didn't have lots of followers and I was kind of like to you I was basically a nobody. So I'm just curious like what made you give me the opportunity to originally come on the podcast and form a relationship with you. >> I'm, going, to, say, this, is, going, to, sound really weird and people are like whatever, dude. But I don't look at whatever accomplishments I have or social following as a way of defining myself. I just look at myself as an entrepreneur who's trying to make it in this world. And you're an entrepreneur trying to make in this world that we're at different levels and in terms of like on on our journey towards achieving whatever it is we want to achieve. So I am no more important than you and you're no less important than me. That's just my general perspective. So, this answer is dependent on time and place. I'm at a time and place where I have time to talk to you. And so, if we're going to have you on the show and to do a pod with you, I'm okay with that. Today, it's become a lot harder. Not because I have a higher self-image. It's because there are lots and lots of people now asking for that same amount of time, which I don't have time for. So if I do what I do really well, more people want to be on the pod than not. So now it's become a problem selecting. So I have to become more selective. Now I'll share this with you. Somebody reached out and said, "Hey, I'm really interested in being on your pod or having you as a guest on our show or something like that, and we think you'd be great." And I I wrote back. I said, "Hey, I'm sorry to do this, but um as a criteria for which pods I choose because I don't have a lot of time. How many downloads do you get per episode?" 99% of the time it's pretty cool. Like I don't get enough or I have this and we're all cool. This person got really offended. It's like never mind. Offer rescended. If that's all it's about for you, I'm not interested in having you. No problem. Everybody can respond however they want. I I think if I'm to be a little judgy here, that person is looking at the world through their eyes only to have really low empathy for other humans to to say like because I ask you therefore have to say yes or what sucks to say like I have some criteria and I have some standards and I need to know you've been doing this for long enough. So some of my criteria now are for me to be a guest in somebody's pot is I don't want to be episode one. You barely even know what you're doing. You might even turn on the mic properly. And oftentimes that's the case. Number two is, okay, you've done the reps, but have you grown at all? Because just because you keep doing pots doesn't mean anything to me. You need to grow. You need to be good at what you do. And what you bring to the equation is an audience. So I give you my time, which I find to be I define to be very valuable. If I'm to give you my time, which I have non-renewable supply of, then you must bring an audience because otherwise, why am I on here? because the likelihood of you asking me something so profound that I see into my soul crevices I've not seen before is quite low. So that's why I was like that was a really interesting strange response to a pretty innocuous question. I didn't say I wouldn't be on your pod if you didn't hit this or that. I'm just like out of curiosity. How many downloads do you get per episode? >> Which, almost, everybody, answers, and, I, say okay we're too early. Please hit me back up when you're here because I'd like to do this. I just can't do it when you're this early in the game. Just out of curiosity, you have you have any thoughts on that, Matt? >> Yeah,, I, just, think, it, triggers, people's insecurities around them not being enough. like it they obviously feel judged in some way which in a way they are being judged and I think that's okay because you're asking somebody who's spent years and years and millions of dollars to kind of build their reputation and you're asking them to come on to your show because you believe that that's going to boost your credibility and reputation. So, like there's there's something there's a real genuine value exchange there. And I think when you question people, they get defensive when they feel like they're not good enough or they don't have the reputation or whatever. I think the people that are just like, "Hey, yeah, good point. Actually, I haven't really got haven't done the reps or I haven't done this or haven't done that." They're probably more secure in themselves and what they're doing and they understand that they're going to get nos and it's not a it's not a reflection of their personality. Yeah, I I'm I'm confused by their expectations because they asked it must be something or >> Well,, I, don't, know, if, it's, their expectations. I think it's just you by saying I have criteria and like tell me your criteria. The likelihood is like if it was D of a CEO, they wouldn't have any problem telling you, right? So, the likelihood is that it's not the stats aren't good. >> Yeah., And, that, triggers, something, in them that they're like, "Oh my stats aren't good enough. my podcast isn't good enough for Chris. So, I'm going to my like defensive self is going to come out and say, "Well, screw you then." Like, if you're too good for my podcast, and it's just, you know, it's someone's trigger, right? It's someone's it's someone's wound, their emotional wound. >> Yeah., I, think, they're, they're, like,, "You can't fire me. I quit." Like, I didn't even get to that part. >> You, can't, leave, me., I'm, dumping, you., I'm like, >> "Okay,, that's, fine.", Now,, the, thing, is, I don't I I'm not going out of my way to make enemies out of anybody, but I'm pretty sure that person's walking away thinking, "What a jerk. What a prick. This guy is full of himself." Like because I asked the question, okay, I don't want anybody to to be angry, but I can't control someone's reaction, but I also have to respect my own boundaries. But we'll put that aside because you had asked this question. Why? Why? Why have me because right time, right place right introduction? And it was one of those things. Now you can say fortunately unfortunately there's a team they vet inquiries and you know I have more opportunities to do podcasts with people than I have capacity to do it. So it becomes really tricky >> and, and, people, have, all, kinds, of expectations about being on the pod like you must do this or that. I'm like you have to be on the pod. We're going to do it the way we always do it. So, you know, everybody's the most important person in their universe, and I don't think that's a horrible thing, but let's not use that to treat other people that way. >> So,, did, I, answer, your, question? >> Yeah., Right, time,, right, place., And, I guess I'm just looking at Yeah. I'm we're not necessarily having a debate or discussion, but I'm kind of in the camp of how important really is personal brand and you're in the camp of personal brand is super important. So, I guess I'm just raising that as a well, why did you pick me for the book? But like you said, that was four years ago or I think five years ago now. It was a long time ago. >> Yeah., Yeah., Right, time,, right, place. >> Yes., And, and, everybody, has, a, right, time, right place. For example, had you struck up a conversation with Bartlet and took a picture with him and kept in touch that would been right time, right place. And maybe that gets chocked with Matt's journal as missed opportunity probably. >> You, know,, my >> Although, Daniel's, good, friends, with, him now, so I'll uh I'll use that relationship. Yeah. >> Yeah., Yeah., So, my, my, business, coach would say this to And he goes, "I think Chris, in life, we have seven big opportunities. >> I, don't, think, you're, number, one., You're not a number seven, but we should not miss any more opportunities." And we would sit down and talk about some of the miss opportunities. I'm like, "Oh he's he's right. I just took it for granted these things will happen again and again, and sometimes they don't." >> Right? >> That, happens., Okay., Now, so I can be clear. Let's just go into this. You're skeptical but curious about building a personal brand. Well, what I want is more inbound opportunities. So, I would say like I'm pretty happy. I'm happy with my business, happy with the clients that I work with. I'm how happy about how much money I earn. Um, but I have to do a lot of the outreach, I guess. like I have to I'm the one actively building relationships with people and I don't mind that but >> I've, been, doing, this, for, like, close, to, a decade now and it would be nice to have more opportunities coming my way rather than me being always the one that feels like they have to create it and I see people who have a big personal brand and I spend time with you and I spend time with Daniel Priestley and I I see the people and the amount of opportunities they have by having that personal brand and that profile and I'm like I would quite like some of that. Okay. All right. U so I I want to be clear on my position on this. I believe if you want to scale your expertise on a one to many um one to many model and you have knowledge and you are committed to doing the work, I believe a personal brand can accelerate this. So I'll share a story, not to name drop but I'm going to share a little story. I'm at a very intimate dinner with some of the most influential people um you could be at a dinner with and Dan Martell walks in and he's talking about stuff and he goes, "You know, the thing I learned about personal brand is it's a force multiplier." And he said, "I was the reluctant uncommitted one." So, as he tells the story, over, dinner,, I've, told, it, at least once before, he's he goes to his other friend, a guy named Alex Ramoszi, and he goes, "Man, you were so anti-brand and now you're going nuts on this stuff and you're blown up all over the place. I'm not convinced. Convince me." So over dinner, they talk and he's convinced. And he shares a stat that's staggering about how many qualified inbound leads that Alex has per day. the number is probably higher than most of us have for sure safely in a year or even 10 years, maybe even our lifetime. >> And, he, famously, said, on, stage kind of mid-transition into building a strong personal brand, he said, "I'd rather be rich than famous." >> Somewhere, along, the, way,, he, realized that two are not two separate ideas. >> In, today's, economy,, you, become, rich because you're also famous. Because fame allows you to shine a spotlight on something. Now, if you're an empty person, pretty vacuous, like you have no ideas, you're pretty hollow as a person you'll just shine a light on that and that's what you were worried about before. >> But, I, I, don't, consider, that, because, I, am a person of substance, of experience, of lived experiences battles won and lost that I can share. I have knowledge to impart with others. And if you're that kind of person, then you will want the light or the ability to control where the light shines. And that's what this is about. >> And, just, one, side, footnote, here. >> If, you're, my, friend,, if, I, consider, you my friend, and I don't consider a lot of people my friend, I feel that if I have any ability to influence anybody, I don't want the spotlight for myself. I want to be able to share this with my friends. It's like you have a resource. I'm not trying to hoard that resource. That's why some of my friends are able to do stuff with me because I'm like, if I can help you in this way, I'd be more than happy to just put it out there. Not for strangers, not for acquaintances but for people who keep showing up and like I I get the I get the measure of the person. I think you're good enough for me to like give this trust in this relationship to. Okay, putting that aside for a second. So, this is not for everybody. This is not for every every Tom, Dick, and Harry. Now, Priestley and I would get into this real interesting conversation one time. He goes, "Chris here's the problem. Everybody who says they want a personal brand cannot have one." I'm like, "What do you mean?" So he goes and explained. He goes, "You know, like for example, on like how do you know somebody's going to be how they're going to blow up?" I said "Well, they have to have a certain they have to have the it factor." She goes "You see, not everyone who can sing becomes a pop star. And not everyone who's got a autotune voice, that doesn't exclude them from becoming a pop star. There's other factors that we don't consider. And there is personality. There's charisma. There's tone of voice. There's even like just physically the way you look or you have a lot of personal style or the way you say things and your phraseology or your point of view and your take on on the world is so unique and refreshing or different or funny. There's an X factor and we can't count on that. All we can say is if you do these things it gives you the best opportunity to develop that authority that you look for. Now to your to your question, and, we're, going to, have, to, have a debate about this. you want more inbound opportunities. And I have been fairly clear and adamant on this. I'm not an advocate for teaching personal brand to develop inbound opportunities. They happen despite you not trying to get them. And so it's a very different approach. And the reason why I say this is because the vast field of personal brand coaches are all designing their pitches to help you get more inbound opportunities. I don't think what they're doing is called personal branding. I think what they're doing is called social media marketing. They're using the platforms to market to people. And so they're in your inbox they're on your email list, there's follow-ups. Almost every single thing that they're doing feels very transactional to me. And that's the opposite of personal branding. Because in the world of brand, on one side of the spectrum is brand long-term consistent value being delivered to customers or audiences. On the other side, it's called performance marketing which is good for short-term cash flow. But they're they're in opposition to each other. And quoting Hormosi again he goes, "You can be a millionaire. You can get everything you want in your life if you're willing to delay the ask." So that the value that you give to people the transformation you're able to create in people is so deep that when you ask they'll be more than happy to give. And the longer the delay, like delayed gratification, the bigger the ask, the more likely they are going to buy. And he quite literally proved this a couple of weekends ago when he did his book launch for $100 million models in which it was reported he sold over three million books for the tune of hund00 million. an astounding feat because according to him, he's not been asking you for too much and he's created massive amounts of value or transformation for the audience that they're more than happy not to buy one book but 200 books or 4,000 books or however many books they bought. >> That, is, incredible., So, the, mistake, that a lot of people make is piece of content and ask give you something get something give you something. So it's very transactional and if we enter into that kind of model, I'm not the right coach because I don't know how to do that. This is not what I'm trying to teach people. So we have to make a determination here. If you're interested in doing this thing that has no predictable return on investment that requires you to have a it factor that may or may not pay off for you because if you don't have it, there's not much we can do. >> Okay. You're not selling. You're not selling it. >> No,, I, unsell, it. Then yeah then >> and, be, as, hard, and, honest, and, as, direct as you want to be. >> Yeah., Well,, I, guess, my, first, response, is then like not so much what's the point, but then like what is the what is the prize at the end of the rainbow? >> Yeah., Okay. When you're an old man in your deathbed and you look back on your life, what moments will matter most to you at? What kind of universal questions or objectives have are you thinking abo