1h 51m 11 min read 75,186
How To Get Clients You Want To Work With (Role-play)
Chris Do demonstrates how to ditch the sales script and win ideal clients by focusing on relationship over transaction.
Chris Do
Founder, The Futur™ · August 24, 2020
Stop Treating Every Client the Same
The call you’ve been waiting for finally comes. It’s not just any prospect. It’s a client you admire, someone with influence, a budget, and a genuine respect for what you do. Your palms sweat. One wrong move and you could scare them away. Do you play hardball to show your value, or do you bend over backward to land the project?
This is the scenario creatives face when a “good one” finally breaks through the noise of tire-kickers and bottom-feeders. The temptation is to run the same play you always do, to deploy the same script designed to weed out bad fits. This is a mistake.
As The Futur’s founder, Chris Do, demonstrates in a powerful role-play session, you have to change your entire mindset. “We're not supposed to treat everybody the same,” Do states. “Everybody's different.”
A desirable client isn’t just someone with a checkbook. They represent a significant opportunity beyond a single project. They are what Do’s colleague Mo Ismail calls a “referral hub.” These are well-connected people whose endorsement can unlock doors to a dozen more ideal clients. They already believe in the power of your work, and there’s an immediate rapport. As Ismail describes it, “there's transparency in how we communicate... we joke with each other.”
When you encounter a client like this, the goal is not to win the negotiation. The goal is to make the deal work.
This requires a fundamental shift in approach. Do warns against falling into an antagonistic or contentious process. “You want to flip that switch off now,” he advises. “The switch that says hardball negotiation, like let's squeeze them for every little thing and let's win this battle.”
Stop treating every client the same. These people don't come around often. Your primary objective is to build a long-term partnership, not to maximize profit on the first invoice. This begins by abandoning the script and showing up as a human being first and a service provider second.
The Transactional Trap
Most creatives, even when faced with a dream client, default to what Do calls “robot mode.” They follow an invisible script, reciting a pre-packaged menu of services and prices without truly listening to the person in front of them.
In a live role-play, Ismail demonstrates this common pitfall. Playing himself opposite a potential client, his approach is technically proficient but emotionally distant. He quickly moves to qualify the client on budget, presenting a vast and confusing price range. “An engagement with me is probably going to run you between 2,000 upwards to 12,000 a month,” he states. “Is that very wide range something that you are comfortable spending?”
He then lays out a series of packages tied to volume:
- The Low End: $2,000 a month for 12 video cutdowns.
- The Middle: $4,000 a month for 22 video cutdowns.
- The High End: $12,000 a month for a fully managed service, which he quickly dismisses as unnecessary for this client.
The client is left feeling overwhelmed. “I have so many options and I don't know what's the best for me,” she later reflected. “And now I have to choose which one's the best for me, but can't you just tell me which one's the best for me?”
This is The transactional trap in action. It’s a conversation focused on deliverables and price rather than problems and outcomes. By presenting a menu, the service provider forces the client to diagnose their own needs and choose a solution from a list they don’t fully understand. It shifts the cognitive load onto the client and reduces the provider to an order-taker.
Do’s critique is sharp. “He's just going down some kind of script in his mind... he's on robot mode,” he explains. “He's not adapting to who she is.” When you’re dealing with a client you truly want to partner with, you cannot be a robot. You must be present, adaptive, and deeply curious.
The conversation felt like a sale because it was. Instead of a collaborative exploration, it was a guided tour through a price list. It was a failure to connect, a missed opportunity to build the foundation of a real partnership. A competitor who understands the difference between selling and serving, a topic Do covers in his talk on pricing creative work, can easily disrupt this kind of transactional relationship.
Diagnose Before You Prescribe
When Do takes over the role-play, the energy shifts immediately. His objective is not to sell, but to understand. He begins not with budget, but with connection. “I've heard about you, too, and I think you're good people,” he says to the client, establishing mutual respect from the very first exchange. “You seem like a really decent human being. Somebody that I think that we could do something good together.”
This single move reframes the entire dynamic. It is no longer a vendor pitching a client; it is two respected professionals exploring a potential partnership.
From there, Do systematically unpacks the client’s problem, refusing to discuss solutions until he has a clear diagnosis. He spends the majority of the conversation in this diagnostic phase, a critical step for any creative who wants to be seen as a strategist. His approach is built on a series of powerful questions:
- “What is the pain point that you want to solve?”
- “Why don't you just want to do this with whatever internal team you must already have?”
- “What metrics matter to you?”
- “If we start creating content for you… what are you going to say like, yeah, it's working really well?”
He listens intently, mirroring her language back to her to confirm his understanding. “So, it sounds to me like you're saying you need to be hands-off,” he clarifies. “And right now, you're mostly concerned about the output. Is that right?” Each question peels back a layer, moving from her initial request (micro-content from long-form videos) to her true business objective: increasing reach and driving sales conversions.
This is the principle of Diagnose before you prescribe. A doctor doesn’t hand out prescriptions at the door. They ask questions, run tests, and understand the root cause of the symptoms. A strategic partner does the same. Jumping to a menu of services and prices is prescribing without a diagnosis. It is professional malpractice.
Only after thoroughly understanding her goals, her constraints, and her definition of success does Do pivot toward the solution. And he does so by empowering her. He asks one of the most powerful questions in any sales conversation: “What's going to make this a no-brainer for you to say… let's get this thing going?”
This question shifts the focus from what he wants to sell to what she needs to buy. He invites her to design the perfect offer, giving him the exact blueprint he needs to close the deal. This is more than just good communication; it's a strategy that puts the client in the driver’s seat while you hold the map, a technique further explored in advanced listening tactics.
The Art of the Reframe
The pivotal moment in the conversation arrives when the client, having been asked to name a comfortable investment, suggests a path forward. “If I could have five videos a week at 2500, I would feel good about that,” she proposes.
This is where most service providers would either agree, caving to the client's request, or directly argue, creating conflict. Do does neither. He recognizes the contradiction: the client says she wants results (reach, clicks, sales), but she is prescribing a solution based on volume (five videos per week).
Instead of arguing, he reframes her request by taking it to its logical, low-value conclusion. “So, you're looking for somebody to simply just take those videos and just cut them down and not actually add a lot to it,” he says, subtly using the word “just” to trivialize the task. “It sounds to me like what you really need is just a live human being to just grab that, look at the data, and give you something.”
He holds up a mirror to her request, showing her she is asking for a pair of hands, not a strategic mind. He then immediately contrasts this with the high-value partner he thought she wanted.
“I'd like to think I add a little bit more to it than that by adding titles and graphics and maybe pulling in quotes… recontextualizing it so it feels fresh and new and relevant,” he explains. “But it doesn't sound like you need that.”
With this move, the client is forced to confront what she truly wants. Does she want a low-cost editor cranking out content, or does she want a partner invested in getting her the results she described earlier? She realizes her prescription was wrong. “So you'd be more involved and engaged,” she replies, her tone shifting, “not just there to cut down the video but there to respond to the audience and create things that will actually get me to my goal.”
This is how you transition From order-taker to strategic partner. You don't tell the client they are wrong. You lead them to that conclusion themselves. You expose the gap between what they are asking for and what they truly need. By doing so, you elevate the conversation from one about quantity and cost to one about quality and value. You are no longer being hired to “just cut videos.” You are being hired to achieve a business objective.
Designing the “No-Brainer” Offer
With the client now aligned on the need for a strategic partner, not just an editor, Do begins co-creating the offer with her. He doesn’t dictate terms; he facilitates a discussion to find a mutually agreeable path forward.
This collaborative approach is a masterclass in reducing friction and making it easy for the client to say yes. He starts by establishing a firm, confident floor for his engagement. “My minimum level engagement is $2,500 a month to work with me,” he states clearly. “It's hard for me to take on clients that spend less than that unfortunately.” This isn't an apology; it's a statement of fact about his positioning in the market, a key concept for attracting ideal clients.
He then puts the power back in her hands, framing the investment around her comfort level. “Perhaps what we can do is figure out together what number feels comfortable and then design a package that will meet your needs based on your budget,” he suggests.
When she hesitates at the $2,500 figure, wanting to stick to her initial $2,000 budget, he doesn’t just discount his price. He masterfully connects the price back to the value and the results she craves. He turns the conversation away from cost and toward return on investment.
“If you spent $2,500 with anybody… and you got something that exceeded your expectations, then $2,500 would be a bargain,” he reasons. “But if it's less than what you'd hope for, then you would feel like it's wasting money. So you tell me what results you want.”
He is Designing the no-brainer offer in real-time. The framework is simple yet profound:
- Establish a Firm Minimum: Confidently state your floor to anchor the conversation.
- Empower the Client on Budget: Ask them what number feels comfortable to work with.
- Connect Price to Results: Frame the investment in terms of the value and outcomes it will generate, not the hours or deliverables.
- Co-Create the Scope: Work with the client to define an engagement that fits their budget and your strategic recommendations.
Finally, he closes the loop by managing expectations and de-risking the decision. He proposes a 30-day trial. He’s transparent about the initial learning curve. “I won't be honest with you,” he admits. “I got to still get a feel for your content and it's probably not going to happen until midway point. So, are you okay with that?” He even builds in a bi-weekly check-in to review progress and pivot as needed.
He ends by reinforcing his genuine desire to make this a success for her. “I actually like you. I'd love to work with you… I want to make sure this is a home run for you.” With every objection addressed and all risk mitigated, the only logical answer is yes.
The Relationship is the Moat
There is a powerful reason to abandon the transactional script and invest this level of care into a client conversation. It goes beyond just closing one deal. It’s about building a defensive wall around your business.
Do poses a stark question to other service providers: “Do you believe if I was back in the service business and I got your contact and who your clients are... I could probably steal your client and charge more?”
The uncomfortable answer for most is yes. If your relationship with a client is purely transactional, you are vulnerable. If you are simply doing the minimum required, you are a commodity. Someone who is willing to invest in a real relationship, to understand the client’s business deeply, and to function as a strategic partner can and will take your place.
Do shares a potent analogy. Imagine an attractive person in the office whose partner treats them like garbage, takes them for granted, and belittles them. “Do you know how open that door is for you to walk in?” he asks. “People forget this is just a relationship. Somebody hires you, that's a relationship.”
Treating a client as a task to be completed is like being the neglectful partner. You open the door for a competitor to come in and offer the care and strategic attention the client craves. The way to prevent this is to stop doing the minimum. It’s to adopt the philosophy paraphrased by Do from sales legend Zig Ziglar: “If you do more than what you're paid to do, eventually you'll be paid more than what you do.”
By investing in the diagnosis, co-creating the solution, and consistently linking your work back to the client’s highest-level goals, you are doing far more than what is expected. You are moving from a replaceable vendor to an indispensable partner.
The relationship is the moat that protects your business. It is the unfair competitive advantage that cannot be easily replicated by a cheaper, faster, or more automated competitor. When you genuinely care about your client’s success and demonstrate it at every turn, they stop being a client and start being an advocate. Price becomes a secondary concern. Loyalty becomes the primary currency.
This is not about being needy or desperate. It is the opposite. It is about operating from a place of such confidence in your value that you can afford to be generous, collaborative, and entirely focused on the other person’s success.
That is how you win the clients you want to work with. And more importantly, that is how you keep them.
TRANSCRIPT
Hello, beautiful people. What is up? This is not our usual broadcast time, but you know, I've been having a lot of conversations with my two good friends, Mo and Melinda, and I thought maybe we should have these conversations with you live and present.
So, Mo and Melinda, you you guys know who these people are, guys. Say hello to the good people. Yo, what's popping?
[laughter] Your voices. What's popping? What's going on there?
Oh, I don't know. Maybe I'm a little too loud. Hold, let me check.
Did it just crack a little bit? No. No, it's it's not too loud.
Oh, okay. Perfect. It's just you, Mo.
Just you. It's just you obnoxiously loud. Sorry.
Okay. You guys have seen us do this before where we do role plays and one of the hottest episodes is when Mo and I are dueling it out and people watch and they're like, "This doesn't happen in real life." Believe it or not, it happens more in real life than you think. But we thought today maybe we should take a spin on this.
So Mo, tell the people what we're going to do today. Yeah. So, more recently, I've been getting uh calls and acquisitions from clients that I really want to work with that have the money, and I don't want to come across too desperate or too needy, but I also don't want to come across like I'm playing hard ball in the negotiation.
So, I need some some sage guidance on this one. All right. I liked how you just spoke with your hands there.
It [laughter] was very Gary Vaynerchuk like, you know, like if you just did this, let me tell you, don't do this. I was feeling the gear vibes there. Okay, let's go.
All right, so let's set up the context here. There's a client you actually want to work with. So before we even answer that question, I want to put some parameters around what makes a client one you actually want to work with because we're so used to dealing with scum bad clients or the bottom feeder tire kicking clients.
Every once in a while, a good one comes and we have to change our script. We have to change our whole mindset because we're not supposed to treat everybody the same. Everybody's different.
So what makes for a good client? Let's start there. Mo, what do you think makes for a good client?
Well, in this particular scenario, this client I know would be a good referral hub for me. They're very tapped into their space. Um, they already believe for me, as you know, I do video work and video strategy, so they already believe in the power of the kind of work that I do.
Um, they have the budget that I'm willing to ask for. And so far from our conversations, like I feel like they're a great fit, like there's already bonding happening between me and them. So those are the things that come up for me.
When you say there's already uh a great fit or bonding, describe that in words so that people can tell because sometimes some of our audience won't they won't be able to say that just somebody calls who says, "I have a job. That sounds like a great fit. Let's bond." Yeah.
Yeah. Well, um, what I mean by that is there's there's there's rapport there. So, there's transparency in how we communicate with one another.
They're willing to tell me what they want openly, what they what they don't have, what they do have. Um, we're we're exchanging dialogue regularly off of just like standard email. Um, we joke with each other.
So there's there's a friendliness there with this person. Okay. Anything else?
No, that's it. Okay. So, we talked about this before where we have this gut feeling inside and sometimes the gut more often than not is telling us run for the hills and then we don't we pay the price for that.
But sometimes the gut tells us something different which is this is somebody I like. This is somebody I I I feel like I know in real life. Maybe we've had a conversation or people that I know know this person and they seem to be sincere, genuine, good people as they say.
Now, you want to work with them, right? So, you have to flip that switch off now. The switch that says hardball negotiation, like let's squeeze them for every little thing and let's win this battle.
But here's the thing. People like this don't come around that often and you need to treat them a little bit differently. Mo talked about and he used this term, they seem like a good referral hub.
What he really means is they know a lot of people and they're wellconed and the people that they know might also make for great clients of yours. So, and we're not looking at this with anxious or eager eyes. We're looking at this hopefully objectively because these are things that designers tell themselves all the time.
Oh, I'm going to get so much more work from this person and their friends. But we actually know this person and we know their hub and who they're surrounded and connected with. they they um they have influence and they have they have sway with lots of people.
So, it's it's in your best interest to do a good job for this person. So, here's where the first mindset shift is going to happen, Mo, where you're going to want to adopt a different less u perhaps uh antagonistic or where you don't have to be so contentious in the negotiations process because you want to make the deal work, right? So, let's step into this.
Let's uh let's set up a conversation and then we'll jump into it like how how we're we normally do our role plays together. Okay. I'm the Set me up.
I'm me. You could be whoever you want to be. Okay.
Uh the setup is this person is looking for video content. They're already making video content, but they need to take themselves out of the picture because they're too busy elsewhere in the business. And they just called me up.
Okay. and they're asking, they're inquiring about video and me working for them. Okay.
Who are you and who am I? What would be best? I'm me.
Let's let's me. Okay. And and what are the parameters?
You you've you you're setting up the situation, but how am I supposed to behave? You're not giving me enough to work with here so that there's I know how to behave. Okay.
You need you're already making YouTube content. You need someone to take over the editing of that content. You also are interested in creating micro content now to expand the content on other channels.
Mhm. And you don't really know if it's best to hire someone like me or to bring somebody in that can be your video editor. So that's that's how you that's how you're feeling.
Is that enough parameter? Um, what what is my mindset? Do I like you?
Do I want to How tough do you want? Like, I don't know how to behave. See, because I don't talk to this client, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. You're not giving me enough of a character profile for me, do you? You do like me.
You do like me. You've actually seen me on Chris Do's show. Um, you've seen my own content on Instagram and you like how I am as a person, the energy.
Um, but you're also really confused, like you don't know what's the best option to to go with as far as video. Okay, I have an idea. Melinda, have you been paying attention?
I want to get your voice in here as well. Yes, you play the client. Oh, man.
I should have said no. [laughter] You play the client. Okay.
You good? Yeah. All right.
So, Mo, when we do this, what's the intention? Like what is are you trying to show us the right way to do it, the wrong way to do it, or why are we doing this? I'm going to do it exactly how I would do it and then maybe you analyze if I'm going about it right.
Am I hard balling too much? Like does does this does this look like the way you should behave with a client who you really want to work with? Oh, okay.
So, this is one of those situations where ideally you would have had recorded this conversation and had a transcript that you would give to Melinda because people are often wondering if they could ever sit in on a on a real life client negotiations. So, right now, whatever Melinda's going to say is not going to be reflective of what this potential client has said to you. Mhm.
So, you see the challenges here? I do. It's not going to come across anywhere near that that real life conversation.
So, how should we proceed? Have you thought this through, Mo? This is what I'm asking you on the spot here.
Making me look bad. Uh, no. No.
We've had time to prepare. Come on. How should we proceed?
I mean, Melinda can just come in as a client that that I'd want to work with and I'll just go from there and she can do exactly what she would do if she needs services. Yeah, let's try. I I have some apprehension as to how this is going to play out.
I'm just letting you guys know for the record. I have some apprehension. Yeah.
[laughter] For different reasons. For different reasons, we have apprehension. Okay.
All right. So, Melinda, you're going to you're going to be this this very genuine, sincere, likable person, and you like Mo. You want to work with Mo, but you're not just going to sign on the dotted line because there's money on the line here, and you you have a lot of options to consider.
Okay? And Mo is just going to be Mo, and we'll see how this goes. Okay?
You guys ready? Three, two, one. Go ahead, Melinda.
Hey, Mo. I uh I think I need your help. I have a lot of YouTube content.
I want to expand my audience. I want to attract a lot more people. Um, and I heard that you're the person to talk to.
So, can you tell me more about what you do and how you could help me? For sure. Hey, Melinda, how are you first of all?
Great. Great. Thank you.
Good. I'm curious, who did you hear from? Uh, the future.
Oh, nice. I need to send Chris that uh that 10% check if we close this thing, right? Um, you said you wanted to know what exactly did you see as far as my work that got you interested?
Yeah. Well, I saw a couple videos of you. Um, I saw I saw your Instagram.
I saw the way you post your own content, but then I also saw another client that you had reposted in your stories. I looked into that and um saw that you were doing something similar, not only for yourself on your own page, but then also for your clients. and I thought, well, that would be really cool to have that for my own business, too.
Okay. Did anything specific out of the stuff that you saw stand out? Um, just the there what I saw, the video clips that I saw were cut down from what I think were longer form videos and I have a lot of long form videos that I would love to be cut down to.
And it's there's just so much volume that I have and I don't want to do that. And you know, you seem like the best person for that. Awesome.
Awesome. Tell me, why do you why do you need these cut downs? Like, what are they going to do for you and your platform or your business?
Yeah. Uh, for me, it's going to expand my audience. So, it's going to fill the top of the funnel, the awareness of what I do and my business.
And so, if I have more people that are aware of me, then that will lead to more people who convert into email subscribers. And then from there it'll eventually convert into a sale. So [clears throat] more people that know about me, more people that will I can sell to.
Awesome. Awesome. So in short, more audience members, more conversions, more sales.
Yeah. Yeah. Melinda, can I be real with you for a second?
If if that's cool. Of course. I am probably not the cheapest option when it comes to video and I want to make sure that that's something you're going to be okay with because I have friends and other business owners that do something similar to what I do far less expensive.
An engagement with me is probably going to run you between 2,000 upwards to 12,000 a month. Is that very wide range something that you are comfortable spending? That's a big range.
Can you Well, I do have a couple questions. First off, what do I get for that? Because that's a big range to work within and what are the type of results that I can expect from this?
100%. So, before we dive any further though, this is something whether on the low end or the high end, you're comfortable playing within with me? Yeah, it's something I would consider.
Yeah, the high-end seems a little high for me, but Okay. But the but yes, I would fit in there as far as budget's concerned. Awesome.
So, I can walk you through the process a little bit for what we do and what you would get. Overall, what we do is we take everything you have and we become the eyes and ears of video. So, you're not any longer having to be in the weeds.
On the smaller side, we first regardless of the engagement, we start with strategy to really understand your brand so we can make strategic decisions on what kind of cutdowns we need to pick to hit those goals and identify what's the best strategy for you. Now, the price point really varies on how much output you're getting, right? Usually someone like you with your influence would need at least 12 cutdowns or upwards of four YouTube videos a month.
So for that $2,000 range, that's what you'd be getting, the 12 cutdowns, which is about one video every other day during the week. So three videos a week. And as you continue to go up, the um the amount of videos increase.
But that last one that you heard, the 12,000, we come in and do everything for you from start to finish. Direct, shoot, story, board, create the long form and create the short form content. I don't think that you're going to need that biggest package because you did mention you already have the long form content.
So, I would see you playing somewhere at the beginning or the middle. And of course, aside from the editing portion of the videos, we would caption them for you, title them for you, post them for you. So, you're literally hands off and free to do whatever you'd like in your business and not have to worry about anything video related except being the talent and recording.
How do you feel after hearing all that? Or if do you have any other questions? Yeah, I do have some questions.
So, what I'm hearing is if we were to go the low end, 2,000, three videos a week, um, the middle option, I don't think I heard I heard the bigger one, but what what would be something that would fall into the middle range? Yeah, depending on how many usually what I like to offer is 22 videos in the middle, which is a video every day of the week, five days a week, depending on the month. And that one's around 4,000.
Okay. And then what type of results could I expect from this? Because this this is a new investment for me.
It's a bigger one. I've been doing really well with the long form content and been growing my audience there, but this is a completely new thing. So, uh, what kind of results could I expect?
Yeah, what we've seen with other clients so far in doing this is a spike of course in their um audience on the platform. So recently we had a client that jumped up about a thousand followers within the first uh week and a half and their email conversions jumped to about 200 additional users and they've just converted around two clients in the first two weeks. So, I'm not saying that that's a guaranteed thing that you're going to get because we would create a strategy specific to you, the goals you want the video to do, and the kind of audience that you represent, right?
Is there a way to That's really cool about the the results there. Um, is there a way to test this out? Because I really I know the audience that are consuming the long form videos.
I don't this is completely new territory. Yeah. For me to tap into where I would be sharing the micro content.
So, is there a way to test this out or, you know, just to even test it to see if this is something that is going to work for my audience and my business? For sure. For sure.
I can hear that. You know, it's something you want to ease into. Um, what I've done in the past with other clients is do a monthly phased engagement.
So, we do one month, we test it out, see what works, what doesn't, and pivot accordingly to get the results that you want, and make sure that you're comfortable in the engagement. Because to be honest, I'm not going to have you jump on as a client until you feel the most comfortable with what we can do and what we can deliver for you. How does that sound?
That sounds that sounds good. So, it would we test it out for a month. see how it is, look at the results that we're getting, and then if we needed to adjust, we would.
For sure. For sure. Now, adjusting could look like scaling down the videos, maybe replacing certain micros with long form if the long form is producing better, whatever that needs to look like for you and the audience that you serve would be what the adjusting need to look like.
So, sure. I think the last question or this thing that that I'm thinking of is Mhm. I'm I'm still debating whether or not to jump in this as far as this new domain and this new way of reaching my audience because I know that the long form is working uh really well.
And then I do have some some options here. I know to be able to produce these and even just test them out on my own. So um yeah, that's where I'm at right now.
What are those options? uh working out I mean I've seen some videos even ones that you've put out on like educational ones of teaching how to do this um you know hiring my assistant to do this or um so just to test it because again just this being this is really new um to see if this is even the the way to go. Gotcha.
And how how like involved do you want to be throughout the testing process? like what is your end goal for a relationship like this to look like? Well, ideally I would like to hand off everything.
I mean, and if if this is going to work for my business and it's something I want to pursue, it's definitely something I want to just hand off to somebody else to take over, make those decisions, and check in with me to make sure that we're going on the right course, that we're attracting the right people, um, and the conversions are happening. But, I would love to be hands off on this. Yeah.
Okay. And let's say let's say we can get you to a point where everything is handsoff even in the testing phase. What's a budget that you're comfortable spending for that first test month?
Probably the lowest the the 2,000 for the test. Okay. And would you still be doing the long form content that you're doing and editing it or would you want someone like me to take it over?
Um because I've I've had that handled and that's going fine right now. I'll keep doing that for now and see how this first month goes. So why don't we test it out at the lowest point with the 12 videos and your existing long form content and if we crush it and knock it out of the park, we have another talk about moving forward for an extended engagement or continue to phase it out.
How does that sound? Yeah, that sounds great. Okay, so I can go ahead and send you an invoice.
[gasps] Yes. Sweet. All right.
Click. All right. Close.
And seen. And see. All [laughter] right.
People are like, "What? What are we witnessing? What is going on in the chat?" They're like, "What is this?
Is Melinda a nice client or or what's going on?" She's She seems very nice. Okay. I have a lot of thoughts on this, Mo.
Oh god. You got a thought, too. You do have a thought, too, Melinda.
I do. I and I just realized right afterwards, this could be because Mo and I have had a conversation about this previously, but I didn't I didn't feel that I like I didn't know what I needed to bring to the table besides having long form content because I know Mo, we've talked about this previously about how um like what do I I need something in particular to make this work, this relationship work and that I need a certain type Well, Mo, you go further with that because I know Got it. Got it.
Yeah. Melinda, how did you feel in this process? If uh there's three emotions or vibes that you can get from being negative to neutral to positive, what's your general vibe based on the way that Mo talked to you?
If you guys didn't know each other, I felt I felt taken care of probably on the positive side of neutral. So I was like, "Okay, let this go." Okay. A little a little north of neutral is what you're saying.
Yeah. Yeah. Now remember, Mo is supposed to be treating you differently.
Yeah. Mo wants to work with you. Mo likes you.
But you know what I heard in this whole thing? And I'm glad Mo replayed it like this. So we have a lot of material to work with.
Ladies and gentlemen, for and jury of the of the court, may I present to you that Mo is trying his best to recapture how he did it, not how he should have done it or in hindsight. So we're getting a glimpse into into this. And the first thing I noticed with Mo is this is he's just going down some kind of script in his mind.
Like as if he's been watching the future and he's been paying careful attention to the words that we use and the phrasing and he's attacking this problem like all other problems. And and Mo and Melinda and I have spent some time together and we talk about it's either robot or monkey brain. And I feel like here he's on robot and and robot mode which is robot says do this, must follow that and then do this.
and he's not adapting to who she is, right? So, he's played that perfectly. And then the monkey is like, "Let me just try anything." Just ah, just crazy frenetic energy.
There's no real rhyme or reason. So, let me try to do this if I were Mo. Same Melinda.
Let's rewind the tape. And I think I'm going to get to where Mo got to much quicker. And my goal is to make the client feel like they are special.
Like if uh Mo, who's your favorite band or pop star right now? John Bellian. Who?
John Bellian. J O N. Bellian.
Okay. John Bellian calls you up and says, "Mo, I got a video project." You're going to be going through the script. [laughter] That's the thing.
You don't want to do it for free, but you can't you can't be all robot robot brain about I'm spitting all over the place with the peanuts in my mouth. Uh you can't be robot about this and you're coming across like a total robot. Remember guys, and Melinda, you guys have seen this happen.
We've done this a thousand times before. You guys default to some kind of invisible script in your mind and you're not present to the person that's in front of you. So, let's get into it.
Okay? Shall we? Okay.
And you guys see if you notice the difference. And while you're watching this live with us, all 644 of you right now, why don't you start to pick apart the things that I'm saying and what you think Melinda might be feeling as I'm doing in real time. And at the end, I will break it down for you.
And then you can keep score for yourself and say, "Oh, I got those right." Okay, here we go. Let's get right into it. Hey, Chris.
Um, I heard about you through the future and I heard that you could help me out. Um, I have some long form content. I'd like to expand my audience and create some micro content out of it.
That's awesome, Melinda. Thank you very much. I've heard about you, too, and I think you're good people.
Well, thank you. You heard about me from where? I saw you on the video as well.
Oh. Yeah, you seem like a really decent human being. Somebody that I I think that we could do something good together.
Awesome. That's just the hunch I get though. You know, you could be a totally different Dr.
Jackekal, Mr. Height, but I think you're a pretty good person as well. Thank you.
Okay, so are we talking about a video project here? Uh, yeah. So, taking my long form content and creating micro content from it.
This is perfect. A lot of people actually do call me up for helping them out with video content. So, this is right up my lane and alley.
Now, I don't want to get into the weeds with you here. Generally speaking, there's a pain point that you want to solve, and I just need to know what that pain point is for you. Like, why why don't you just want to do this with whatever internal team you must already have?
I want to be hands off on this. I If I use my internal team, then I would have to first hire somebody if I'd Yeah, I have a team. I could use one of them potentially.
Um, but I'd have to get all that started and get the process going and just getting them to that level of producing at the rate that I would like. I think it would take a while and I would like to just be hands off with this. I see.
That's perfect. So, it sounds to me like you're saying you need to be hands off. You got other fish to fry.
It's going to take you time to ramp up and scale up your team. And right now, you're mostly concerned about the output. Is that right?
Yeah. Okay. Fantastic.
So then the other thing I just need to know and just only a couple more questions. I don't want to kill you with all my questions. I hope you don't mind.
Is this is that you're doing content now presumably and you want it to perform better than now. Is that a safe assumption? Uh well better it's actually different.
So I have long form content right now and it's performing well where it's at and I want to move into a new domain and take so what we have on YouTube. I want to take that and then push it out to my audience and other platforms. So, it is a new thing.
So, it's not even that I need it to be better. It's just I need it I'd like to work and expand my [laughter and gasps] So, what I understand is right now you're doing zero and you anything more than zero is better, is it not? Well, yeah, if you put it like that.
Okay, but let's let's put up the goal post here. So, it sounds to me like you have some really good long form content that you want to create something that's a little more bite-size. Is this going to live on Instagram or some other platform?
Yeah, Instagram and LinkedIn. Okay, perfect. All right.
So, the question I'm getting to right now is what metrics matter to you? So, if we start creating content for you when you look at it, what are you going to say like, yeah, it's it's working really well. Well, it increase sales because at the end of the day, I want to expand my audience so that they convert into email subscribers so that they convert into sales.
So, at the end of the day, it would be an increase in sales. Okay. Since I don't have control over those parts, what's the best thing that the video can do for you?
Reach. Just reach. Okay.
Reach. Reach. Well, I would also say that if we can get those um viewers to take action, which the one action would be to convert into an email subscriber and if we can't go that far, I would say at least to click on the website at minimum.
Okay. So, it sounds to me if there's a certain audience size that's looking at this and they actually just click on whatever link, then the video has done its job, right? Yeah.
All right. So, we're talking about click-through rate or something like that. So, do you have a number in mind as to every piece of content that you create, how many views you want to get or what kind of engagement you're looking for?
[clears throat] Um, I'd have to look at my numbers. I could work backwards from the click-through rate that I currently have and the views that I currently have on uh the posts. They're not videos.
I hear that videos perform better. So, um reach would be about 3,000 per post. Um if I could do better than that, that would be wonderful.
And then the clickthrough rate is about 200 for well probably 10% 300 for every 3,000 10% clickthrough rate. Mhm. Wow.
You're getting some killer clickthrough rate. You must have really good content right now. Okay.
That sounds pretty good. It sounds to me just just based on my experience that the reach could be actually higher than what you're setting. But the click-through rate since this is new that that sounds really high like internet average and click-through rate is like in the low single digits here.
Is is that what your experience align with that or is it different? Um I have a higher I mean I'll have to check the actual numbers. It could be lower than that but my clickthrough rate in general is higher than the average last I checked.
Okay. All right. Well, uh I'm eager to start working with you.
What's going to make this a no-brainer for you to say like, Mo, let's get this thing going. Or Chris, let's get this thing going. I would love to test this out because this is something new that we haven't done before.
I know the long form content works. I know the content that I'm currently posting is working as well. So, I would love to to somehow just test this out.
And um I don't know how long that would take to see results if that's a couple weeks, if it's a month. Um but yeah. Okay.
All right. A couple things here. So it sounds like you want to do a trial and that makes a lot of sense to mitigate your risk and I don't want to put you in a situation where you feel like you've you're overly committed to working with me.
Obviously I'd only want to work with you. You felt like we're getting the results that you want. Right?
So here's the thing. Like I don't even know what we're doing yet, but I got to tell you, my minimum level engagement is $2,500 a month to work with me. And that's just for me to dedicate resources so that I can do this for you.
And it can go on up from there for up to 12,000. I have a client that I work with that pays me $12,000 a month. So perhaps what we can do is figure out together what number feels comfortable and then design a package that will meet your needs based on your budget.
Where are you in that spectrum? my budget I was I came in thinking it was going to be around 2,000. Okay.
Can you or that's what I would be comfortable investing in that. Right. Can you go a little north of that?
We're talking about a $500 difference. Um it's hard for me to take on clients that spend less than that unfortunately. Yeah.
Um I'm a little hesitant with that just because I've already budgeted out that. But uh what type of results could I expect with that? Or is this just because I was ready to test with the 2000 but I'm a little hesitant going higher.
Okay. So, if you spent $2,500 with anybody, me or some other vendor, and you got certain results, and we we both know this, if you got something that exceeded your expectations, then $2,500 would be a bargain. But if it's less than what you'd hope for, then you would feel like it's wasting money.
So you tell me what results you want. How many videos do we need to post a week? How much engagement?
And we could we could set those as benchmarks and I'll work on it so that until we get there. Yeah. If I could have five videos a week at 2500, I would feel good about that.
Okay. Five videos a week. So we're talking about doing 20 videos a month.
Mhm. Okay. So, there's usually a sliding scale between quality versus quantity.
It sounds to me like you want to do more quantity than quality. Is that the case? Well, because my long form content has already been, you could say, validated by the audience.
I know that there is a type of quality that already we're bringing to the table with the video. So, as long as the cuts are the right cuts and chosen correctly, then I don't I I feel like we're already coming in with high quality. I see.
So, you're looking for somebody to simply just take those videos and just cut them down and not actually add a lot to it. Yeah. I don't need it to add a lot to it, but I do need someone who is going to pick really well the micro cuts that will connect with my audience.
That is what I'm looking for. Right. Well, we could just look at your engagement graph in YouTube and look at the analytics and just pull from there.
I mean, it's not much of a guessing game at that point, right? Yeah. Okay, great.
So, it sounds to me like what you really need is just a live human being to just grab that, look at the data, and give you something. I'd like to think I add a little bit more to it than that by adding titles and graphics and maybe pulling in quotes that are relevant or just recontextualizing it so it feels fresh and new and relevant because you're talking about engagement and designing these things for a clear call to action at the end. But it doesn't sound like you need that.
What is it that I need then? Oh, just somebody to cut it down. Oh, well, to cut it well, cut it down because I I can't honestly tell you I could do five cuts or five videos for you a week, one per day, and really, given how much I'm getting paid to to actually add all the extra stuff that I think will get you the results that you want.
I see. So, what what would in your mind give me the results that I want? How many videos?
I think we need to scale our way back. I think maybe two to three videos a week. And that way I can spend some time and also it'll give me time to think and reflect on the engagement which you're getting and not just be cutting these things in advance and not paying attention to what your audience is doing and reacting to.
Yeah. Got it. Got it.
So you'd be more involved and engaged in not just there to cut down the video but there was respond to the audience and create things that will actually get me to my goal. Yeah. I think that's kind of what you wanted, right?
So that's what I heard. And not just hiring an editor to to do straight editing work for you. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay.
So, does that feel like it's kind of getting you in a place where you feel really comfortable and happy about this? Yes. Yes.
Okay. So, if we did say three videos a week at $2,500 a month, we can try this out for 30 days. And I I think what'll happen in the very beginning, there's a little learning curve.
I won't be honest with you. I got to still get a feel for your content and it's probably not going to happen until midway point. So, are you are you okay with that knowing that it's going to take a little time to get there?
Yeah. Yeah, I understand that we need that time. All right.
And most likely what I'd like to do with you too is maybe do um maybe every two weeks give you a report and we can have a conversation and redirect if necessary or you can say, "I love that. Give me more of that or a little less of this." Is that okay, too? Mhm.
Okay, great. And I got to tell you, I want you to be totally 100% comfortable with this decision because I actually like you. I'd love to work with you and I know that you're a big influencer yourself.
So, I want to make sure this is a home run for you. Thank you. Yes, I feel confident moving forward.
Okay. Super. So, I will send over a one-page deal memo and if you're okay with that and we will I'll send you an invoice and you can pay and we'll get started.
Uh I can start as soon as you guys send me a check. Is that okay? Perfect.
Okay. Fantastic. Thank you very much, Melinda.
Thank you. Okay. Bye.
All right, Anene. Okay. [applause] All right.
Before we go any further, we'll ask Melinda the exact same questions. Um, on the scale of how you feel between negative, neutral, and positive. Where are you on that spectrum?
I feel a little north of where I was. You're a tough cookie. This [laughter] is a tough cookie.
OH MY GOSH. I DID EVERYTHING I could for you, Melinda. You did?
Yeah. In the middle, it just felt, man. Oh man.
Tough to please. Okay, now Mo, let's have a quick conversation, then we're going to turn this over to the people in the chats, if you will. Our audience has grown a little bit to 775 people.
And you guys hang out because Melinda has an amazing question. So, don't go anywhere and you're going to want to hear what she has to say and how we respond to that. But Mo, what's your what's your impression of the differences between what you did, the old you versus potentially what you could do?
And do you see anything different? I do. So, you [clears throat] really sat in the problem for a really long time.
And you you milked that to really understand why she would even need the video before you even started talking price. And you opened with on top of that you opened with just yo I'm a fan of yours. Thank you for calling me.
So there was already this like mutual love that was set at the beginning and it didn't feel to me like a sales quote unquote conversation. And then once you got to the point where you were where you understood her problem and you needed to transition into talking price you said something which I think is super powerful like what would make this a no-brainer for you? So, you're giving her the power to tell you what would work for her.
Um, what number feels comfortable for you, and we can customize a package. You you didn't sound robotic like I did where it's like, well, there's this, then this. Um, and then towards the end, you still said, and you you brought it all the way home, like, I want to make sure that this is super comfortable for you.
Um, and know that there's a learning curve. So really easing her into what the entire engagement would look like uh throughout throughout you working with her and while still you didn't sound eager or like desperate at all cuz when she said 2000 you were like oof I don't know if I can do that and then it almost it almost made it feel like the carrot in the stick where you were like well I would add graphics and this and this and that and she was like wait but but I but I do want that I don't want to hire somebody else. So that's what I took the high level just you really stayed in the problem before even talking numbers and it was very personal.
Well, you know the thing that you'll notice if our audience is paying attention, you'll notice that she said, "I want five cuts a week." Mhm. So when I heard that, here's the breakdown for you guys. Okay.
When I heard 500 cuts or five cuts a week, I was thinking it went against everything else that she had just previously said. And what she said was, "I care not to do this. I care to have a certain amount of views and to get clickthroughs." But immediately her prescription is volume, volume, volume.
And I don't want to argue with her. So I said, then I reacted by saying, "Okay, so uh you just need a really a person just to edit this and cut it down, right? That's all you need.
You just, you know, I'm using the just against them and we always hear this used against us. So now I'm gonna use it against them. I'm gonna trivialize it." So, you just need an editor to just cut this and just push it out.
And and then she took that posture, which I love that she did this. And she said, "Yeah, our content's already like uh in your parlance, mo banger." So, it's like, "Yeah, just a monkey can do this." So, we should hire a monkey then. We should not hire me.
We should just hire a monkey. No problem. Right.
Right. But I I'm sorry. I I made a mistake.
I thought you wanted somebody to look at the content and tailor it and and make sure that there's a good call call to action and the results that you want. So really at the end of each day, a lot of your clients and customers may say to you, "Yeah, make us 45 things, make us 200 logo sketches, but at the end of the day, they care about one result." So that's why I spent the beginning of the conversation understanding the one result she cares about. And I wrote it down and I mirrored her and I used um I I mirrored back the same exact language.
You want to be hands off. You want to ramp up. You want to have output.
You want to convert. I said all those things so she knew I was listening to her. So this is a very very subtle way to call into contradiction or point out like these two things they don't sound the same to me.
So which is it? And if she had just really pushed really hard in the whole I just want to hire an editor, here's what I would have said, right? like she's like, "I insist.
I want five edits." I said, "Okay, here's how I would say. I really like you. Normally, I would not even take this kind of job, so I'm gonna do this for you, and I'm going to just show you what I could do differently on one cut.
I'll spend my own time, extra time at no charge to you. And I'll show you the difference between just cutting it and adding something once a week. Let's see if it performs better." And I could be wrong.
It could just be your straight fire content. none of the little extra flourishes matter, but I'll show you and then let's have a conversation the next week so we can look at the numbers together. Is that okay?
And if you with your permission insist that I do less content of higher quality, then I would do that. Otherwise, I'll just do straight cuts because actually my editing prowess doesn't matter. That's how I would have handled that.
Chris question. Yes. Uh, so like if she's just asking you to be hands and like it's it's something you could do quickly, why not just take that on and do that?
Like less least effort and then you [clears throat] get paid. Yeah, that's a good question from Jonah. So you guys may or may not have heard this expression, you know, just hands like just move the keys and the mouse around a little bit and and you're just a production robot.
First of all, I feel like in in a way for me, if I really believe in the things that I'm doing, that's a little dehumanizing to me that you just need a cookie cutter system like and you just bang it out and you're not really adding to it. And sometimes that's all you really literally need. You just like got to crank it through it.
But I'm looking at building a relationship where I contribute more value than what I'm being paid. Period. If I just do the minimum, I'll get paid that and I'll get paid that the rest of my life.
Um, there I think there's a quote from Zig Ziggler somewhere. It's like, if you do more than what you're paid to do, eventually you'll be paid more than what you do. Something like that.
I hope I got that right. You guys, you guys understand? I'm not going to be able to repeat that.
So, I never want to just show up saying to myself, I'm going to do the minimum because at that point, I've already decided I'm going to self-sabotage this relationship. Because imagine then, let's [clears throat] say, excuse me, let's imagine for a second, Jonah, I call you up and I say, "Jonah, hey, just do this." And you're like, "Dude, I'll just take the money, fast cash. It's a smash and grab.
I'm I'm I'm good." Right? And you do that for a little while, right? And then I, as some uppidity person calls up the client, like, "Hey, Mr.
Mrs. client, I noticed you've been doing videos and I think there's a lot of opportunity them to really outperform what you're doing right now. It doesn't look as engaging as it could.
Would you be interested in having a conversation with me about this? Because I think here's what we could do. And guess what, Jonah?
You've been sitting there in the back room cranking on your edit just taking the money and I'm going to steal your client from you. Yeah, I like what you said how you you said you're looking to build a relationship instead of just being just hands. Yeah.
I want you guys to think about this in different terms that you may understand in relationships. Okay, let's just say, and this is going to sound really crazy, and this is not premeditated, so this could go horribly wrong. We'll edit this out later after the live, but here we go.
Let's say you're hanging out, and you see um an attractive uh person in the office and you're like, "Oh, I really like that person." And it and you come to learn that say she has a boyfriend, but he just treats her like garbage. Garbage. takes her for granted, makes her wait, doesn't speak to her in a kind tone, is not supportive of her decisions, and belittles her and all all this kind of stuff.
You're like, "Oh my god, this is horrible." Do you know how open that door is for you to walk in? They're like, "Hey, you know, you having a tough day? Can I buy you a cup of coffee?" That door is just waiting for you to open.
And people forget this is just a relationship. Somebody hires you, that's a relationship. It's not it's platonic, but it's still relationship and people still need to feel like you care about them and that you have their best interest at heart.
Now, at the end of the day, if Melinda, the previous client, role play, she had said to me, "Look, I just want the numbers, man. Just crank out five videos a week, then it's a numbers game. Then she's a volume kind of person, and that's okay.
And I just need to make her be aware of that." that then then what I would also do is also say this is another alternative to how I could respond to it. I would just say to her then okay if it's just numbers I'll make sure we hit those numbers. You'll have a a video up on your account every single day of the week and I'll leave it for you to figure out how to grow your account, how to get conversions because that's what you're paying me for.
Okay, now we have a little uh thank you super chat here. Uh Facen is saying uh Chris love your work. I want to approach bigger clients in foreign countries, but I don't know whom to approach my IG profile.
Okay. So, thank you very much for your support. I can't respond to that specifically individually, but we maybe I'll make a note right now to kind of figure out how to respond to you in a little bit.
Okay. Um, how to approach foreign clients. All right.
What else do we need to talk about this either in the chat or Mo or Melinda? Questions about this before we go into Melinda's question, which I'm also looking forward to. I I have an observation between the two calls between you guys.
Yes. That when you said relationship, then it brought me back to my conversation with Mo did feel transactional, especially when it came to saying, well, we do this amount of videos for this price, this amount for this price, and then it all of a sudden like, oh my gosh, I have so many options and I don't know what's the best for me, and now I have to choose which one's the best for me, but can't you just tell me which one's the best for me? And then in the conversation with Chris, it was like he only gave the information as it pertained to what I had just said.
So you were So Chris, you were leading me somewhere, but you actually I don't even know if you were necessarily leading me. You were walking with me to try and see where I was going and not trying to give me too much information ahead. You were just trying to figure out where are you?
What are you looking at? Where are you trying to go? How can I help you get there?
And not giving me too much that like with options like Mo did. I have to say something pretty funny. This is a super funny comment.
I'm sorry for breaking the whole vibe that you just put out there, Melinda. That was excellent breakdown. By the way, PJ, I was like, uh, hey Jonah, please, please do a cut down of this and call it how to steal your girl.
[laughter] I'mma get that get on it right after this. Yeah, right after this. How to steal your girl.
All right. So Melinda, I want to help everybody. I want to help you guys get out of the robot script reading thing, okay?
Because a child could read a script. Call centers read scripts and they're not paid a whole lot. I want you to be human.
I want to help you with the mindset. What's going on in my mind? And the words can come out all weird.
They can come out of order. It doesn't really matter. And they'll they'll be really genuine.
Here's how you do this. In my mind, I'm just sitting here thinking, what would make Melinda really really happy? That's all I'm thinking.
Like, what makes her happy? Like, what does she want from this call? So, it's like I want to ask things like, hey, what what matters to you?
What's a good price? And what do you hope to achieve and accomplish? And what's a home run look like?
Or how do I make this a no-brainer for you? Like, you don't even have to think about it. You could sign this thing tomorrow because I want to make it very easy.
I'm trying to remove barriers to her saying yes. And I want to let her describe to me what a dream date is, not what I do. Right.
I don't really care. You know, like say if Melinda and I again a relationship, Jon's scoffing a little bit here. So, do you want to pay attention?
All you single men pay attention here. Taking notes here. Yes.
Good. If if I'm I if I just met Melinda and we're like hitting it off. I don't want to tell her like here's my vision of the date of the future for the two of us.
I think it's going to be like, you know, a $100 bottle of wine in some Shishi French restaurant and and we're gonna eat the most beautiful cut of ribeye and oh, it's gonna be great. And she's like, I'm a vegan, you idiot. I have uh you know, there's al alcoholism in my family.
How dare you bring up wine. I was like, see, I made it all about me in that case. All I want to know is like, you know, if we could have Oh, no.
Forget about it. I won't even say if like that. I'll say, "Tell me what your ideal date looks like." You know, somebody picks me up at this time and we go for a picnic and it's just really down and dirty.
That's sandwiched and beer. And I don't want that fancy beer. I want that low-end Coors beer.
I'm like, "Wow, she's something about Mary right there. Take me to a sporting game. Baseball, football, basketball.
What are we talking about? Who's your favorite team?" and then surprise her like, "You know what? Uh, keep your calendar open.
I got tickets to XY game and you say yes and and and it'll be there for you." So, all I want to do is find out what makes her happy and then design the conversation around giving her exactly that. Now, where I hear conflict, I'm going to try to resolve it. But that's my initial intention.
That's it. That's good. So, she could have easily told me at the very beginning, I just want 35 videos a day.
Like, okay, it's all volume. I can make that happen if that's what makes you happy. All right.
Any other thoughts, Mo or Melinda? No, I'm just out here being single now. You done stole You done stole my client.
You're just out [laughter] here. I could steal your client. Oh, I know.
YOU JUST DID. [laughter] THAT'S WHAT I LOVE. I was here as it was happening.
I mean, you guys are watching this. How many of you realistically think this? Do you believe if I was back in the service business and I got your contact and who your your clients are?
And it's not that hard to find out. I just go to your site. I look at the client list and I start calling them.
If you don't have a great relationship, an unbreakable relationship, an unfair competitive lock on it, somebody like me who's really interested in your client and talks to them the way they need to be talked to could probably steal your client and charge more. Do you think that's realistic that that's going to happen? And then if you say yes, I think that could happen.
Strengthen up your relationship. learn how to talk about the about business and learn how to develop that kind of rapport that we're talking about. All right.
Okay. Should we move on to the next thing? Are we are we done analyzing this and showing you the 50 shades of how to have a client conversation that you actually really want to work with?
I have one question for Melinda. Go ahead. What What would it What didn't they do that kept it from being a absolute best experience?
Um, good question, Jonah. That is really good. I think when with Chris, well, with both of them, they did tap into what I wanted and what I desired.
I think if if I could sit in like we sat in the problem a really long time and I would be interested to sit in the ideal state for a little longer than we did to get me excited about what's going to happen when we do actually work together because that's why I kept asking about results too is like what can I expect for myself and my business if I invest in this I want to know what what is the ROI what is the investment that I or what am I gonna get out of this? And I want to see that beautiful future and live in it for a moment even if it's not if we're not there yet. Um I think that would help.
Okay, I want to address that. That's very good. So when you had said I would like to get uh 3,000 what did I write down here?
Let me find my notes. What notebook did I write in? 3,000 reach.
Yeah. I said to you, I think we can aim a lot higher. That didn't get you excited.
No, I feel like we didn't. It was really fast because I know I've had conversations with you before, too, and I've seen you do this with other people. Like, I'm thinking of Ron Seagal.
The conversation that you had with him when you're like, "Wow, what like tell me more. What else is happening?" And and what would that lead to? Because I felt like, well, for me, the reach is going to lead to subscribers.
subscribers are going to lead to sales. And then it felt like, okay, well, we don't deal with that. We only deal with the results that the videos are going to get you.
And to me, I was like, okay, so I have to reel it back in, and I'm just thinking about just that, and I'm not dreaming about how big my business could get. I felt cut off. Okay, very good.
Very good. There's a couple things here. You're asking for an unrealistic outcome from a video and I have to be very square and straight with you on that.
Otherwise, I'm just a lying salesperson and I don't want to do that. This this relationship can only begin if we're going to be honest with each other and have realistic expectations. Right?
You're literally paying somebody to push out a ton of video content for you for not a whole lot of money and to expect for you to like get new clients and all this kind of stuff. You pay sales people way more than that and they don't even make you a video. And that's literally all they do.
They'll just talk to your prospective clients and try to bring them in. So I think there is some kind of expectation there that needs to be tempered. And that's what I'm trying to do.
And you need to know that as a client if I if you're asking me to get a result which you're not paying me to do nor give me control over. I think you would actually potentially red flag should be going off in your mind that why is he guaranteeing or talking about all these things that he has no control over? Sure.
Your your uh the selling to me radar will be like just blasting alarms right there. No matter how good you might feel in that moment, it's like, "So, how's this going to work?" And you're a savvy customer. You're a savvy client.
You It's not like you don't know how to make videos. If you were some schmuck, uh, you know, just starting a business and trying to do some social media and you're like, "Hey, tell me more about that social media." And you're like, "Oh, I'll get you clients." And then you're like, "All right, sign me up." So that's where that kind of happens. And I don't want to do that to you, right?
You literally told me at the beginning, I need to be hands off on this. I need to ramp this up. I need output.
So, I just try to hold the client's potential client accountable to the words that they say. And if they if they move around too much, Melinda, that's also going to be sending red flags in my mind. It's like, wait a minute, this person wants me to like uh homeschool their children, do their laundry.
There's just too much that's being added to this that's just like uh I had a good feeling at the beginning. Now I'm just getting not a good feeling and I'm getting ready to walk out that door. Right.
Okay. So, the other thing I wanted to point out to everybody and the internet's going to like just get upset at me. $2,500 a month to create three to five edits uh a week.
That's about kind of what it takes. I don't want to oversell this thing. uh with Ron Sakal like we're doing some big strategic approach and designing a whole new business.
Melinda, we're going to go right there. We're going to talk about his desired future state. We're going to paint the picture and really understand his long-term goals.
Uh that's because that's a 60 to $200,000 engagement and I'm going to sell accordingly. So, that's another lesson for you guys. Don't take this giant sales approach made for six figure deals, seven figure deals, and try to do it for a $2,500 trial.
people spend more than that on one suit. So, it's like, yeah, I'm going to work with you for for a month. And I even said in there, it's going to take time for me to ramp up.
In the beginning, it might not perform well. I'm setting expectations here, realistic ones. And maybe in the middle, we're going to catch and I want to have a bi-weekly conversation with you so that you're aware of the analytics and we can make decisions together.
I want to I want you to feel like you're in um in charge of this and I'm as committed and as engaged as you want from an offsite employee. So your warm and fuzzies. I think you were you want to be sold something that maybe it has a couple of zeros to it which I would have done and I did it deliberately this time not to go so deep on that because it's 2500 bucks.
Yeah. Bro, I gotta I gotta shout out the Arabs in the chat that are being lit right now. [laughter] How do you know they're Arab?
Because let's just say they're saying some things in Arabic using English language that I can't say live and they're [laughter] being and it's just they're just being funny. That's all. Okay.
All right. Okay. Let's let's dig into the next bit and we're going to move on.
Okay. Thank you very much both you guys. Round of applause.
[applause] Okay. I'm going to make a request for Jonah. Every time I look away from camera, you probably should cut away from me.
I don't know what to cut to. Cut to Mo. Don't cut to me.
I I'm like scratching something or I got a drink and you're still on me. I warned you last time, but here we are. All right, let's get into it.
Melinda, set us up. Yes, I have had a couple conversations, whether it be through DM, um, another conversation I had in person with someone that designers are overcharging. that um that if especially if a designer is charging more than a doctor would get in one day.
Okay, that's from a conversation I had. And what's wrong with that? Um according to this person, it is it's not right.
it's wrong to charge more than a doctor and they get to decide according to them that sadly this was through messages and I didn't get to go that deep. So um but I have heard this I have heard this said in passing as well like again not too long of conversation but that that what we charge is inflated that we shouldn't be charging as much as we do and then with this person especially if it's more than a doctor. Yeah.
Yeah. I get it. So let's let's uh let me say this so that it's like super tight what Melinda is saying and I'm going to say it with a more aggressive tone here.
Some people believe that it's immoral unethical unfair greedy selfish, and just plain wrong for designers to charge more than who they decide in society should receive more money. That's what you're saying, right, Melinda? Mhm.
And how does that make you feel when you hear that? um many things but I think initially I probably felt defensive like what the like I I can charge this people happily pay it and so to me that's not doing anything wrong but um I think when I first had those conversations I was feeling defensive I think now I think to myself well who who were you or me to decide what something is worth. Isn't it what someone the buyer isn't the value and what the buyer sees in it and the value it is to the buyer just like everything I buy to me I value it a certain way and that's why I'm willing to pay a certain amount for things and so if something wasn't worth that nobody would buy it nobody would pay that money for it so um all right there's some I I hate to say this But there are a lot of assumptions being made by whoever sent this message to you.
And it's about to get real juicy right here, you guys. So, if you needed to use the bathroom, you should have gone already because we're going to dive into this because this is a mindset about money and what's fair and the construct of how our society works. Okay?
If you and I were to make a list of every possible job, vocation, career choice that we can have and we started to organize those and we organized or we asked a million people to take a survey with us to say which professions, careers, vocations are most critical to society. We would probably have a wide range of answers and then we took the the average of those and said, "Okay, these scored the highest." What would your guess be as to like what average Americans would would respond to as the most critical jobs in our society? The most critical professions that are should be worth the most according to this person doctors.
So healthcare. Well, I'm asking you like what the world would think of like tell me the top three. Mo participate in this too.
What do you guys think? Why don't you guys in the chat just drop in what you think are the most noble, valuable, critical professions in our society? Military firefighters doctors, lawyers, depending on the kind of lawyer you are.
Uh, I would think farmer or anyone that would give me food. Yeah. Anything else, Jonah?
Police. Teachers. Oh, police.
We know who he's for. Yikes. And cancel.
[laughter] Okay. It's cuz Jonah's been having some trouble with the law right [laughter] now. He's like, he's loving the police.
Oh yeah. Protect us. Okay.
A lot of people were saying, "Oh, I can't believe you guys haven't said this, but the chat is a lot smarter." They're like, "Teachers." I said teachers said [laughter] teachers. Did he? Mhm.
When did you say that? I think I was talking over you. Yeah, that's why I didn't hear you.
[laughter] But I wrote down what you said, but you did not say teachers until I started talking. Influencers. I love those [laughter] bloggers.
Oh, okay. Farmers. Great.
Okay. And so if we were to stack then, which ones are most important? Which ones are most vital?
I would say we need some we need people to take care of our health. We Somebody said government. Is that Ricky yelling in the background, Jonah?
I guess so. I didn't hear him. He just popped in.
Does he understand we have a live stream? He just had a run. Tell him.
[laughter] He's just like, "Okay, so you guys, it's like we need people to take care of us when we're sick. Especially too like when women have to give birth." It's like a doctor is pretty critical at this point, I think, right? So, we have to preserve our life and take care of it.
So, that's and then we have to get food into our body. And then after that, I think there's probably like people to teach us how to do these things because eventually those people die and then we we don't know how to re replenish the the the people that do these vital jobs. So then we can say then Melinda uh nobody said investment banker, nobody said hedge fund manager, nobody said uh media company or media mogul.
Nobody said those things. Uh I'm a little surprised that lawyer made the list. Uh normally people don't describe lawyers as the most vital essential profession, but it's respectable.
I'm just saying. So you see like where our society values and then if you look at the rate of pay for each one of these things, as vital as a farmer is, as vital as a teacher might be to our society, what do they get paid? Relatively speaking, not a lot.
I saw this person two miles away. If this person has a problem, Melinda, they need to take this up with the American people, with the government, become a senator, do something to change these things. So that's where the real problem is, that the most valuable people in our society don't get paid that much.
And there's also another problem that and people have argued this before that the corporations that are set up around these things like doctors they they they uh swear an hypocratic oath to do no harm and to take care of people. It's not become healthcare. It's become profit care.
It's ridiculous. Like people are getting going bankrupt just because they have a life-threatening illness. So there's there's a lot of problems here.
Lots of problems. So, why do we have to respond to somebody who says designers should not get paid more than what a doctor gets paid? Who gets to decide?
I'll tell you who gets to decide. The buyer and the seller. That's it.
If you sell anything, creative services, if you sell a laptop, like, is it fair that Apple can command a pretty hefty premium on their products over competitors? That doesn't seem fair to me. Aren't Apple computers overpriced?
Well, who gets to decide? Well, if I think it's overpriced, I don't like their design or I don't like what they stand for. I just don't buy the computer.
But it would be weird to like stand out in front of an Apple store. It's like, you're this is immoral, unethical, and you should never do this. Never sell Apple computers more than what it costs to make.
So I think a lot of creative people especially have a really unhealthy relationship with money and value and getting paid to do something that they love and enjoy and that comes easy to them. Oh, I noticed nobody said an alete. Why does LeBron James or Jordan in the day make so much money throwing a ball into a ring?
Why is that considered essential? Why is it essential that somebody who pretends to be somebody else and gets recorded on film gets paid so much money? Why is it that somebody who's born with really great vocal cords, who can sing a tune and and write music and express their feelings through music?
Why should they get paid so much? Is that essential? So, we Oh, where we going with this?
I I don't know why why we need to entertain these ideas. So if the buyer says, "I need something," and you happen to solve that thing, then they'll pay for it. So if a large corporation has to do a rebrand, they have to update their logo, update their app, and millions, if not billions of dollars depend on this going right, they're going to pay for it because it's worth a lot more to them.
And that's why they hire u more expensive people to do the work. Mo, what are you going to say? I was going to ask, can we make this practical?
Like what would what's the mindset that we need to have if something like that comes up? And what's a response that we need to have if this if we were hit with that objection? Because I just feel like that's an objection like uh hidden within like it's an objection hidden in that statement.
So I'd love to see like how you would respond to that if a client did that to you. Did what? was like, "Yo, that's that's entirely too much.
That's what a doctor makes. Like, why why are you charging me that?" Like, can we make it practical like how we need to respond in that? Yeah.
You want to jump into roleplay mode right here? Yeah, Melinda can for sure. [laughter] Just tossing off.
Not cool. Okay. Oh, guys, we're going to do another role play.
And I just want to say this. Thank you for the best barbecue show, for the super chat. Thank you for all this.
What is the path to a brand? I'm a creator. I need a plan and a budget.
I want to create unique merch. Okay, thank you very much. Thanks for the super chat.
That's a big question. So, we'll see if we can get to that. All right, let's get into it.
So, who wants to be my my adversary in this one? I can because this one will be adversarial. This one will be for sure.
Yeah, that's not how you play. I would like to observe and take notes, please. Okay.
Very good. Well, you ready? Or the parameter is you you you're way more The parameter is you're a douchebag and [laughter] and you don't value what I do.
Yet you came to me, right? Oh yeah. Okay.
And I'm going to do everything I can to tell you very nicely that you're a jerk. Let's get it. Let's do it.
So Mo, based on what you asked for, I think this is going to be $36,000 at minimum to do this. I just feel like that's a little too much. Not even.
Actually, let me let me back up. That's entirely too much. That's more than I what I would pay my doctor if I wasn't on insurance.
So, are you using the relative context of what you would pay a doctor to to solve this problem? I just I I appreciate that you're solving a problem. I just can't wrap my head around how this problem is making you that much money.
Oh, it's not about me making money on this. It's about what that problem is worth for you to get off your desk so that you don't have to wake up tomorrow and look at this problem and it's still sitting there staring back at you. And there's no way that you can get it off my desk for less than 36K.
Yeah, because that's the price I said. But do we already previously establish this is a much bigger problem than $36,000? I think it's a big problem.
I don't think it's a $36,000 big problem. How big of a problem is it then? 20.
So you would spend $20,000 to solve this problem potentially. I'm throwing numbers out here. You're putting me on the spot.
I feel like you'd know more on what this is than No, no, no. Okay, I'm sorry to cut you off. I apologize, but Oh, go ahead.
Initially, when we talked and we we had this whole long conversation about this problem that you're trying to solve, it was a really big problem because I only want to work with clients that have big meaningful important problems to solve because otherwise they're overpaying me and I'm wasting my time, right? We've already established that. M so now for you to say that I mean we did talk about like this is costing you um slower productivity you're losing sales you're you're dropping in conversions and you're you're moving in the negative direction of where you want to be as a company right we did establish that or no did I just imagine no no we did right okay okay so your business is doing uh $86 million a year and if it loses 1% of its value we've already determined whatever that numbers.
Let's say it's 860,000. I don't I can't do the math that fast, right? Mhm.
Then you're and you need a solution for this, right? So, this has nothing to do with me. It could take me an hour to solve this.
I'm not going to lie to you. It could take me 36 hours or 300 hours or 3,000 hours. But in terms of the problem that you're trying to make go away, you have an $860,000 problem and you need to spend some kind of money and you get to decide how much money you want to spend on that.
So, you could say, I want to spend 10%. So, let's say it's 86K. Now, you want to spend 10% to solve a a problem that's $860,000.
Even at that amount that we're talking about 10% may not be enough. And there's probably a really good reason why this problem has not gone away before. Now, I don't want to tell you how to run your business, but if you were to spend if you were to take four stabs at this at at 20K, which is seems like a number you're you're throwing out there.
If you would try to attempt to solve this four times in 20k, you'll have spent less than the $86,000 we're talking about, right? By about $6,000. Four* 20 is 80.
So, you would still save $6,000. Why not take that approach? Try one firm that you like, you know.
Okay, didn't work. No problem. Uh whenever that doesn't work out, try it again.
And if you hit it the second time, you still saved a lot of money. Have you thought about doing it that way? Is that something you'd be willing to take on the firm?
Okay. No, cuz look, the way I'm looking at it, it's like you have at minimum you need to invest $86,000 to do this. And I was like, let me try and make this work for you.
So it's either you don't have a big problem to solve or the strategy that I think you know you you need to uh the strategy I think in terms of like what you need to invest in this is totally crazy which you're that's your right to assume that that's crazy and do it any which way you think that you can solve this. I mean, you could literally hire designers from all walks of earth for as little as five bucks to as much as 5 million. And you get to decide what makes the most sense for you.
If you like risk, then you hire the cheaper person. If you if you want to share that risk and lower the risk, then you then you just pay more. That's understandable.
I just don't think the 36k is going to cut it for me. Okay. Yeah.
So, you will spend 20k and take as many stabs as it as you can, right? I don't think it's going to need that many stabs, but we'll see. You probably are right.
Cool. Okay. Thanks very much for considering us.
No worries. Appreciate the call. Now, people in the audience are going to say that's exactly how this conversation would go.
And I'll tell you, I've had these conversations dozens, if not a hundred times. It never goes like this because people don't run $86 million companies by sitting there looking at $20,000 for this thing, knowing very well they have a ginormous problem. You made it.
You made it an $86 million company, though. [laughter] Well, no, we have to set up the context here, Mom. Yeah, cuz you can't go and say like, I'm a I'm a $200,000 company.
See, you what I presumed is we're getting right into the part where you could afford it. You need it, but you don't want to pay. Gotcha.
Gotcha. So, I had to backstory the whole thing because you weren't acting consistent with this character, right? The the the whole roleplay was like to get into that part.
And we don't want to repeat ourselves, but I could have gone through your desired future state, talk about how you measure success, get into your goals, and that's all garbage because I just want to get right to the conflict, right? The conflict is you have a big problem to solve. you you've already identified it, but you don't want to spend the money.
Would you handle it differently if you had to say yes to the Well, that's a different that's a different role play. We're just focusing on somebody that accuses you of being too expensive. So, would you guys understand what's going on here?
I know the chat. I know you guys I know you very very well. You're going to say this never happens.
Chris is crazy. Your clients will like piss all over you and all that kind of stuff. If a client thinks they have a big problem to solve and they think it's unethical for you to charge the amount of money that's going to take, then who's being unethical and weird here.
It's not me. Look, I have a car, okay? Let's say my car is like $80,000 and it just needs air.
And I go in there and I say, "You know what? I need air at the gas station." And they're like, you know, this is going to be $70 a tire. I'm like, "You're crazy.
the machine there says 25 cents or 75 cents or a dollar or whatever. I'm just going to pay for that. So that person's overcharging for something that's only worth this much.
But you know what? I'm actually traveling on the road going on a road trip and the car is making all kinds of sounds. The lights are flashing.
I need something and the engine's starting to steam up here. I'm going to pull over to side of road. Mechanic, an honest mechanic pulls over and says, "Hey buddy, here's what's got you have a cracked radiator.
It's leaking. If you keep driving on this, you will need a new engine because it'll overheat and you're going to be stuck out here. Like the new radiator for this making model is going to be $2,400.
That's the problem. And you're going to say, "Well, I want you to do it for $200." Because you know what? It's only going to take you 10 minutes to swap out the parts.
Well, that's up to you. Probably bad analogy. Well, that's why I try to stay in character because I see the chat.
They're like, "Yo, you didn't even come back with a comeback." It's because I feel like that person would be like, "No, you're not trying to budge for me, so I'm out. I'm going to go find the 20,000 person that can do it for So, here's the problem. That person will never do that or very rarely do that." M see this is where people who have not worked with clients that are not just total I don't I hate to say this but penny pinching miserly bottomfeeding blood sucking leeches they don't understand that in the professional world people who are successful have to run their business in a way that's congruent with a successful business.
Very rarely do you see somebody running a successful company that's just that dumb about money. Now I've read a lot of sales books who that that have really helped me to understand the psychology the statistics of things that I already knew intuitively for many years of doing this. Okay.
Now what what they all say is this. When a client comes to you they have a problem that they already know they have to spend money to solve. I want that to sink in.
When a client calls you, they have a problem that they know only by spending money will that problem go away. I'll give you an example. I have a wedding to go to.
I don't own a suit and tie. I have a problem and my wife won't let me get out of going to the wedding and they're friends of ours. I have to go to this wedding.
I have to spend money to solve this problem. I can't stand outside of Neiman Marcus or or Hugo Boss or wherever or Armani and say, "Look, I need a suit, but I'm not gonna spend money to buy this freaking suit." Well, go somewhere else. Then I'm going to take my butt over to J.
C. Penney or wherever else they might sell, you know, Ross, Marshall, some some TJ Maxx. I'll buy a suit there and I'll look totally tacky and that's okay because I don't care.
That problem is small in my mind. Okay, same problem, different scenario. I have to go to a wedding for a celebrity where there's going to be celebrity photographers and everybody's A-list talent.
Same problem, different stakes. The last thing I want to do is show up looking like I bought a $4 suit and look terrible because this is where people get seen. So where we run into the role play where it's totally breaks for us is that generally speaking I like to work with those kinds of clients who have big problems to solve.
The role plays break usually because people are are don't have the experience with those kinds of people and they still operate like the guy or girl who's trying to shop for a suit at J C Penney. I'm not selling to you. There's a lot of people out there who'll take care of you.
Nothing wrong with you. Nothing wrong with those people. you guys work together.
I worked at that point at one point in my life back in 95, I think. But now I'm not at that point. I don't want to work like that.
I don't want to work with people who don't have big important problems to solve. That's where the lack of push back is, right? You can't you can't have that whole like market bizarre haggling mindset and run a multi-million dollar corporation.
And that's that's why there it's not congruent. At least not in the world that I've seen. Okay, let's add to this conversation because it got a little hot.
Melinda, was this was this respective to what that designer that reached out to you was experiencing? Like, do you think that character was that way? Well, you guys were you took it into a role play between client and designer and they were I think they're coming from looking at other designers and saying what you're charging is overcharging which to me is then saying oh I can't charge that much like that's what I'm reading into it.
So this took it in a different route. I think if we were to talk about what that designer was talking to me about specifically, it would be as if Chris, going back to Chris's example about the air in the tire. And and we didn't change the fact that you needed air in your tire.
We didn't change the problem at all that wait, you're you're charging me $70 for air. That's overcharging. This I'm I'm trying to channel what this person is feeling and seeing.
They're seeing they're not seeing that problems vary. They're seeing that every like that's what I'm assuming here that they're saying that every problem is the same. Therefore, you I should always pay a dollar25 cents for air in my tire.
Never 70. There's never a context that I should pay $70 for air in my tire. Ever.
There is. If you're in the desert 300 miles away from civilization and you're going to die of thirst, yeah, there might be a context and at that point somebody's taking advantage of the situation, but very rarely, right? Like if you're going down the Titanic and there wasn't a lifeboat for you, that lifeboat all of a sudden becomes worth every penny in the world.
Well, I have some examples of what they had responded with in the very short uh communication that we had. Um, they say, "Well, you wouldn't pay $300 for a burger. You wouldn't pay $2,000 to change your car tire.
And you wouldn't pay $5,000 to buy a book." That was their argument. Those are all wrong. By the way, there are burgers that you can buy that have actually gold flakes on them, made of the most premium beef you can eat.
And you guys can look that up. And there are books that sell for way more than $5,000. collectible books, rare out of print books.
What What are the other things then? So, I've already just proved two of them right there. Tire.
Change your car tire. Like if you're at the Yeah, if you're at the what? Formula 500 race or whatever.
Yeah. That you bet that team. It's a matter of seconds of them getting in and out of the pit.
It's worth a lot of money to change a tire. So, Exactly. And so what I'm what I'm seeing with this perspective is that they are putting value on the thing itself and not the problem that it is solving because the problems in all those scenarios are completely different.
The context is different. Right? They're looking at just the thing.
The thing didn't change. The thing is the same. How could it be worth more or less?
Right? Well, let's look at this. Okay.
You're you're you're right. And I want to add some more to this. A doctor doesn't charge you the same amount of money based on the on the time that they spend.
So when you go and you talk to the doctor and you're doing a consult that's done for very little money, but the time in which they're operating on your eye, that's a lot of money. When they're removing some cancer from your body, that's a lot of money. So then you can say, well, why does at one point the doctor charges X dollars an hour or for free and then charges a lot more per hour for something else?
Their time is exactly the same. And it's actually it is related to the problem, but it's actually mostly related to the buyer. The buyer gets to decide if this is worth it to me.
I could literally design the same logo for 10 different people and they will tell me it's worth different amounts of money. So when we can get out of our own heads and say that the world should revolve around our universe, like the sun does not orbit around you. I'm here for the customer.
So the customer says, "I got a big problem." Great. I want to solve it. The customer says, "I got a small problem." Like you know what?
you need to call Larry or Mary because it's not for me. It's just that simple. I'm not going to force the small customer or the customer who's got a very small problem to then try to escalate it to being something much bigger than it is.
That would probably be unethical. And if I know they run a $200,000 business, I'm not going to sit around and say like, "Yeah, you work with me. I'm gonna I'm gonna multiply it by 10." It's just probably most likely not going to happen.
Just not. Yeah. I think that's what you you hit on something that that the risk is completely different like the CL I'm curious what types of clients that this person is used to working with too and I think when someone says like oh that's overcharging I wonder if they're thinking of someone who is inflating the problem bigger than what the problem actually is and they're not uncovering the real problem of the business but they're inflating ing it.
I I'm trying to channel what this person is thinking. Yeah. So, let me let me tell you something right right now about um diamonds.
I'm not a jewelry guy. I'm not a precious stones, precious metal kind of guy, but some people are. And if you and I looked at a diamond together and you say, "How much would you pay for that?" I would say, "Nothing.
It's a rock." Whereas you might say, "Chris, that's a $30,000 rock and I want that rock." Well, I don't care. You can have it, but I don't even care. And you know, I don't want to get into all this stuff, but the whole scarcity, the false sense of scarcity about diamonds is totally manufactured.
This marketing campaign that's been going on for a really long time, saying that you should spend 10% of your salary to buy an engagement ring. It's all designed to manipulate you to do something. So, you as an objective observer to this can say like that's unethical.
It's a robbery. You could be fine. But then trying to tell the buyer not to pay that.
Good luck. Each one of us gets to decide the value of something based on our own world view. So I have a sneaky suspicion that this person who wrote you this message is incapable and also a non-believer that they're they're worth more than that and they're upset.
Their worldview is design's only worth this much because you know what? They're worth that much. And so when they hear about other designers charging more, it upsets their world view.
So rather than accept that, you know what, in this world there are many ways to solve a problem and many different approaches, their first instinct is to tear your world down to say your worldview is invalid. The only one who gets to decide what is valuable is me, my value, my lens, my belief system, and then they impose it on you. So let's not pay any attention to this at all.
Cuz in other circumstances, we would say, "This is ridiculous. Why would I ever even listen to you?" Now, conversely, you could lay down a a sheet of rocks, right, that you grab that you gathered from the riverbed. Some are round, some are sharp, some are jagged, and you're like, "Rocks for sale." And all of us would walk by like, "What is this person thinking?
Who would buy a rock? I can go down to the river myself and get a rock." But you know, you drag it onto the battlefield and David is standing before Goliath and he has a sling, no rock. Rocks for sale.
I'm like, okay, that rock just become super valuable. So, it's not really up to you to decide. The same thing goes for just about everything like the seat on the airplane.
The wa the bottled water that you guys buy and consume. The handbags that you carry around your clutch or whatever and say this is worth a lot of money. The buyer decides this is worth a lot of money.
The seller happily agrees to take that money. And then the poor vendor says why don't people want to buy my knockoff poorlymade bags for more money? They say, "Well, luxury goods are a scam." Different topic, different time.
That's all they do. So, they cast stones because it would be more upsetting for them to believe that they're the ones that are in the situation and if they learn how to do this, that their situation can change. Yep.
Why don't we have the mic drop sound effect on that one? Just Just here. I'll do it.
Okay, Jaden is saying, "Chris, how much do you make as a designer and as a mentor?" I make a lot of money as a designer. As a mentor, I charge $1,000 an hour for coaching. Shock.
[laughter] He's a charlatan. It's unethical for me to charge that much. Don't buy.
That's fine. As the designer, my company's built more than $80 million since we started. So, a lot.
Next question here from Best Barbecq Show. Uh saying, "Andrew, I guess I don't even have a concept of a budget." I see you. Okay.
What else here, what other questions we got? Jonah, I know this is spicy, so let's deal with it right now so I don't have to circle back and deal with you in the comments later. Mo and Melinda, help me out.
And Melinda's microphone is muted only when she mutes it. We don't mute this, guys. We're not trying to silence anybody.
So people are like, "Unmute Melinda." I'm like I'm sorry. No, no, it's not your fault. It's like people just need to know.
And Mo's muted too whenever he doesn't have something he wants to say. Okay. So, what's a good comment or I'm here for a few more minutes and then I think it's time for me to go.
What's up, Angelo? I see you. There's a lot of future proof fam in here.
Marquesado was on. Who else was on? I think Drigo was on potentially.
Odrigo was on. Yes, Angel. A couple other people.
Uh, so Best Barbecq Show has another comment here. Super chat. The creator is bringing value back to a company.
Would you spend $36,000 if you knew it would turn into 50500? A tire burger don't make you money. Uh, all those things are true, but a good tire will save you money if you're if you're in construction or if you're in some some industry that's vital that you be where you need to be at set time.
That's why certain tires cost more money than others. It's just that everybody has a different need, a different worldview, a different value system. And I think once you start to understand that, then you understand the subjective nature of value.
I mean, the the other analogy is to say, well, if you're not uh 6'2, 100 something odd pounds, and have these measurements, then you're not beautiful. Well, says who? There you go.
So that's where what's that? Well, I was going to say there's a comment, but when you finish, of course. I'm I'm done.
Go ahead. It said, but but real world examples, most people are starting out and trying not to negotiate themselves out of business. So maybe maybe it's too like the concept is too high to defend your price point.
Not sure. Wait, Mo, interpret that and let's let's answer this question because I feel like I know what it is, but I'm not looking at the question myself right now. So, channel your best version of that.
If you're just starting out and not trying to negotiate yourself out of business, what do you do in a situation where the client is fighting back for you to lower your price? So, you need the money. I've done this before.
Yeah. Okay. I just graduated school.
You need the money. You need experience. You need to do stuff with your life.
Yeah. Take what you can get. I don't have a problem with that.
I mean, I uh I remember one time there was a uh an art center professor and I had just graduated school and for whatever reason he got my phone number or maybe I responded to No, I know what it is. I responded to an ad. They posted this at school all the time.
Need graphic designer to help with print design, whatever. I I probably called and showed him our portfolio and I think at that time he had Wells Fargo as a client and they did a lot of collateral like print design for them, brochures and things like that and we talked. I can't remember the exact nature of this but he asked me like what do you charge and I I think I said like 40 bucks an hour.
He says we pay 25. I thought about it for a while. I was like is that the best you can do?
And he's like that's the best I can do. That's that's what I can afford to pay. I said, "Okay, I'll take the job." That's it.
Why' you decide? Do you need the money? Okay.
What's that? No, I was gonna ask why'd you decide to take the job in instead of like throwing it away? At that time, um I just wanted to work.
It was that simple. Like I don't want to like my dream job is not to sit there and work for banks. I actually that was the opposite of my dream job, right?
Super boring corporate. I could do this in my sleep. I I know he's underpaying me.
I'm gonna do the work and I'm I'm not going to complain because I'm just going to go find another client. And I did find clients. I got to work on feature films.
I got to work on TV commercials and music videos. And that made me very excited. And guess what?
They paid me even more. They paid me even more money to work on things I loved. Go figure, right?
So, if you need the money, let's not talk about uh the negotiation process. If you need it so badly that you can't pay rent or whatever it is you you can't put food on the table, your your leverage is pretty limited. Do what you can to survive.
In the meantime, the after hours stuff, start working on getting your name out there and being visible to the kind of people that you want work from or you want to work with. Okay. What's a what's a legit question or something that we can argue about?
Mo, did we answer that question? Like when you're starting out, I mean, if it's up to me, we did. Okay.
I I want to share an idea with you guys that are all hanging in there with this. I still see you. is this is your job isn't necessarily to take everybody that calls you needing work.
That's not the goal. The goal is to find a good fit. Something that you believe in, somebody that you'd like to work with and somebody who value you enough, values you enough.
There's a lot of U's in there that they're willing to pay you what you're asking for and will treat you with some level of respect. And if you don't feel that, just say, "I'm not the right person for you." Now, I know that's easier to say in these tough times uh than it is to do, but under normal circumstances, that's what it should be. Uh, so K Cal Drago I think is asking how you create value when you charge $1,000 an hour.
Uh, I I don't know how, but it seems like my calendar is booked with people who think that it's worth more than $1,000. So, the person has to determine they have a problem that's worth more than $1,000 that they think I can solve. Hence, they book me.
I don't have to sell them. I don't have to convince them. All I have to do is send them a link and they they get to decide, do I want to work with you?
Do you think uh you could help me or not? And that's that's it's pretty basic. Luckily, people who have booked me find it to be valuable and then book me again and again and tell other people it was helpful.
And so that's how I'm able to get more work. There's a question here in that line. It says, "If the buyer has a bigger problem but doesn't realize that they have a bigger problem, would you try to show them how big the problem is, or would you just accept them for how they feel about their problem?" No, I don't want to show them how big their problem is.
I'm not in the convincing business. I'm in the finding out what's what matters to you and understanding what it is that you're trying to figure out. So, if you say, "Mo, I need a $2,000 website.
I got a $2,000 problem to solve." I'm like, "Yep, go spend 2,000 bucks. You probably don't need this." I mean, why even do the website? I mean, what kind of problem does does a website solve for $2,000?
I don't know. They probably just have a blank URL. You know, when you go to URL and it redirects you 404 error and nothing found.
That's the kind of problem you're trying to solve. No problem. Go on Wix, go to Squarespace, populate it with some content, hit publish, be done with it.
Spend 50 bucks. There's some arguments going on on the chats, I think. [laughter] Okay.
So, I'm not here to sell you guys what it is that I do, but there are a couple of questions about how people can book me. All you have to do is go on our website and find like book Chris for a co coaching call, and it's really that simple. But I'm going to type it in for you right now.
All right. Uh, let's see. Mo and Melinda, are you guys seeing some good comments there?
I'm looking right now. Okay. Oh, there's a good question here from Shurag who's asking, "Am I still going to do a series on Fiverr and Upwork on Twitter?" Yes, I am.
And people who don't have context on this, let me tell you what I'm doing. I've taken it upon myself to challenge myself to help somebody who's very active on Upwork or Fiverr to help them get off those platforms. I'm going to teach them how to sell for more and get them off.
And we had a lot of people respond to this. So Mark is going to be sifting through this and finding the right candidate. A lot of people submitted their names but have never created an Upwork or Fiverr profile or they've not secured any work through it.
That's not what I'm here to help you with. I'm here to help people who have spent a lot of time on Fiverr or Upwork who do good work but for whatever reason can get off those platforms and can't charge the kind of money that they're worth. And we'll be documenting that so that you guys can see I could take somebody off Fiverr.
Hopefully that's the goal at least. or I or I will fail miserably and have to like what is it called? Eat eat pie or humble pie and say look I don't know what I'm doing.
It's impossible for people to get off Fiverr. I don't believe so but we'll see. It'll be an experiment you guys.
So yes, we're still doing that but we just got a lot of things we got to sort through. Okay. Someone asked, "What if a person pays $1,000 for coaching and they feel like it wasn't worth it at the end?" I don't know.
I've never had it happen. I've done a lot of coaching, you guys. Maybe not as maybe not a hundred coaching calls, but I've done a lot.
And initially, I charge $500 an hour, and I was being booked too much. So, I had to change my rate to $1,000 an hour, and it's starting to get too much. So, then I will have to raise my price again.
This is supply and demand. I only have finite hours of time that I can sell. And so, when demand is higher than supply me, I charge more.
And when you have something that's scarce, me, I could charge more. When you guys start to realize that, you'll start to realize you could charge more, too. How does one become scarce?
Well, become visible, become valuable, give value to people, then you will be in demand. You generate demand. Therefore, you're scarce.
When nobody knew me, there was no demand. Not that scarce. It's a simple rule of economics, supply and demand.
Okay. All right. Um, Facen, can you drop your question in one more time?
Uh, you're you're asking me to answer your question. I think your answer your question is is really complicated. So, let's see what happens.
And I have said this to people before when they've been really reluctant to like book me. Generally speaking, they're not ready. So, I just tell them, "I don't think you're ready.
I don't think you're ready right now." and they'll say something like, "I have a very specific problem and I think if you could help me solve that, then I'm ready." I said, "Okay, well, it's never happened before, but if we do the call and you feel like you didn't get your money's worth, I'll give you a full refund." I got his question if you need it. [clears throat] Go ahead. Thank you, Mo.
Ask it. Yeah, it's He says, "Whom to approach in foreign countries? I want to get bigger clients." Uh and my company is based in India.
Okay. You guys do realize that uh it's very hard to tell where people are from on the internet, right? We see people posting amazing content and I discover, oh, they're in Israel.
They're in Tel Aviv. They're they're in Spain. They're they're some other place.
They're in Italy. Wow, this is cool. Or they're in Ohio.
How do I know where you're from? Well, there are signs and clues that let me know if you don't have a.com. If it's likeit orfr or something like that, then I know you're from France or somewhere else, right?
We know that. So, the first thing I would do is to try to make yourself indistinguishable from companies that are international that are at least uh American or something like that. Get yourself a comwork that feels like it lives up to that international standard.
So, it doesn't feel regional. it doesn't feel like it's it's got things that I I would normally associate with a smaller market. I think that's how you begin.
Now, that's not to say to strip out all of your voice and your POV. I'm not saying that. But right now, if you're looking to attract international clients, which I think you are, and it's better for you because of arbitrage, that people are willing to pay more, have more money to spend in in uh first world, first whatever uh countries, they have a lot more money to spend, disposable income.
They're trying to grow their businesses. What they're willing to pay for creative work is a lot higher than it is in your local market. So, you got to go to them, right?
It's like that expression, the mountain can go to Moses, but it's much easier for Moses to go to the mountain. So, the mountain is the international market. Make yourself seem like you're just right there with all the A players.
The quality of the work, the photography, the copywriting, it's all spot-on. Like, you can usually tell when somebody's not a native English speaker. You can tell in the way they phrase things.
Those are signs. And those signs, unfortunately, people will take advantage of you. I'm not saying me, but people will.
When I see good work, I just ask people, "What do you want to get paid?" And whatever they say, generally speaking, I can afford it. If I can't, I just say, "Here's the money. Take it." I'm not going to nickel and dime you because I know you're in the Philippines or in India.
Um, just tell me what you think is fair and I will pay you. Okay? So, that's what you need to do.
I I mean, look, if you guys just do this right now, if you were to open up Instagram and look all the accounts you follow, tell me where they're all from. How would you know? You would only know because the person let you know.
I mean, right now, those of you guys that are watching, all 832 of you, if you didn't know any better, where where am I from? Where are we right now? Where's Mo?
Where is he? Do you know where Mo is? Do you know where Melinda is or Jonah?
You just don't know. And so, some people will say, "Well, fine. Uh, English is not my first language.
I struggle with writing in English. I I struggle in speaking in English. So now you have a decision to make.
If you want to speak English and you want to write English, there are ways that you can do that. You take courses or uh one of those programs that you Rosetta Stone, I think, or Babel, is it Babel is another one? One of those things, right?
You could learn. I've had to learn. English is not my native language.
I struggle sometimes, like all the time. Okay, Zar. What is Zar saying?
Hey, Chris, thanks for all the wisdom. You are changing my business. Thank you very much, Kyle.
Thank you, Kyle Brown. All right. Okay.
Are we done with this? It's been a while since we've done something like this. Well, go ahead.
Someone in the chat said, "Mo, we need a freestyle." I'm wondering, [laughter] is it somebody from the pro group? I don't know. I don't know.
But I feel like it is. I don't know. I have been writing down as you were talking about the sales stuff, not gonna lie.
So, this could be a disaster. It could be really good. You you you you say what you want.
Yeah. Yeah. So, okay.
So, Facuture Chris, we have a website and an Instagram, but whom should I approach? I'm having this problem. Okay.
Um, I'm going to talk about this more in another show, but there's like two kinds of sales or marketing. One is a hunter mentality, one is a farmer mentality. A lot of people think that the only way to to do marketing is to do the hunter style, which is you stock your prey and you you wait and ambush and you can go for days, months, or or whatever without finding a single thing to catch.
But when you do land one, you're like feasting for for some time. The farmer approach to marketing is very different. You plant, you seed, you you you nurture, you you fertilize, and you water, and then you grow these things.
It's much more predictable. It's slow. It's not flashy, but it's consistent.
You have to kind of determine what kind of marketer you are you. Are you a farmer? Are you a hunter?
So, if you're a farmer, which I think most creative people are, start thinking about what you can do to to till the soil, to plant the seeds, and to grow the crops that people desire, the cash crops. And and if you're doing work that people aren't paying attention to, there's a number of problems that could be there. It could just be the work itself like it's not good.
It could be the type of work. It could be the way that you present it or the hashtags that you're using or your lack of consistency in terms of putting it out there and and engaging with your audience. If those things are the things that you suffer from, then work on those.
They're pretty straightforward to do. All right, I think I'm done with that. Melinda, you have any kind of final thoughts or questions?
No, I'm good. You're good? Yeah.
So, don't don't pay any attention to those people. Okay. There are thousand people out there who seemingly like their only purpose in life is to throw shade because they just can't cope that other people are happy, successful, and in meaningful, healthy relationships.
They just can't cope. So, they make up reasons why you're terrible, you're you're an evil human being, so that they can feel a little bit better about themselves. And for all those people, hey man, if that's your if that's your drink, you want to drink your poison, be my guest.
I'm not going to stay there. Okay? And if you do stay there, Melinda, then you've fallen prey to this, and I don't want that for you.
Okay. Mo, final thoughts. You know what you do with people who give shade?
That that did not even make sense. What do you mean people that throw shades, you put on your shade blockers? What are you?
How did that not make sense? What do sunglasses do? Oh god.
No, you're right. I'm done. You see your metaphor?
I hope your rhymes are better than that. Wow. [laughter] I'm just saying.
I'm just saying. You know, you don't wear sunglasses to block the shade. Shade blockers.
Wear sunglasses to shade. Whatever. All right.
So, Mo, you ready to do this? Let's get us out of here. I want to thank each and every single one of you, all 800 plus people.
I don't know where we peaked at. Uh I couldn't pay attention. Thank you very much for you guys for hanging in there with us.
Don't forget to like, comment, and subscribe to the channel. We love you. We We love seeing your growth and I'm here to help you everybody.
So, from the bottom of my heart and from the rest of the team, I I really do hope that you found this session to be valuable. Jono will be doing that cut. How to steal your girl.
Oh, Lord. [laughter] We'll see. No, I'm just kidding.
We're not doing that. We're That's terrible. We're not doing that.
But that's it for us. And I don't know when the next live stream is. Jonah, do you know?
Thursday, education panel. Patula, Joy Corman, and two other guests. Oh, yeah.
Thursday, you guys. At uh 11:00 a.m. Yes.
Thursday at 11:00 a.m. It's going to be super spicy. I imagine we're going to be talking about the future of education.
We have a bunch of people who are in the education space from different points of view. Uh some young, some a little bit older, and then throw myself in there on the older side, and we're going to be talking about this. It is obviously something that has been impacted and accelerated because of the COVID pandemic.
All right, that's it. So, Mo, I'm going to turn over the rest of the show to you, freestyle, and get us out of here. Yo, this is this is a little written throughout it.
So, here we go. Um, today we learned how to be human, build relationships, and how to sell better with these awesome paying clients to ensure we stack the cheddar. So, keep your head up and listen carefully.
It's not always about deadlines than pay and fees. Focus on whether you're a right fit. Are they comfortable?
Do you have your marks hit? Understand where they're coming from and what's the real problem and let them know that it's all about them. And don't be too aggressive with negotiation.
Maybe phased engagement. Ease them into happiness. Show them you're excited.
Shave off some sense. Then deliver on your promise and get ready to go when trust that that client will never say no. Boom.
[applause] Well done. Well done. All right, Jonah, play some music.
Let's get us out of here. I'm gonna read this last comment from Pixel. Thanks very much, Pixel.
Again, thank you, Kyle.
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