The Anatomy of Pricing Anxiety
For most creative professionals, the conversation about money is where confidence dies. It’s a moment charged with what Chris Do calls an “existential fear.”
“Am I worth it? Is it too much? Is it too little?” These are the questions that echo in the minds of designers, illustrators, and consultants everywhere. This internal monologue, as Do explained at Adobe MAX, creates an uncomfortable relationship with money that leaves creatives perpetually on the wrong side of a negotiation.
The process is painfully familiar. A potential client reaches out, usually through a referral. An initial “discovery” call happens, a 30-minute “fit check” to feel each other out. But when the topic of price looms, the creative professional often punts. They promise to deliberate, to think, to retreat and formulate a proposal. This delay is a critical mistake.
The time between that first contact and the final price reveal is a breeding ground for anxiety. “The longer the days and the minutes that transpire between the moment of first contact to this point,” Do warns, “creates more anxiety, gives your brain more time to freak the F out.”
He compares it to the scariest part of a roller coaster: the slow, clicking ascent to the top. The anticipation of the drop is far more terrifying than the drop itself. By delaying the price conversation, you are extending that torturous climb for both yourself and the client.
This broken process typically looks like this:
- Initial Contact: A referral or inquiry comes in.
- First Call (Fit Check): A 30-minute call to understand their needs, but money is avoided.
- The Retreat: The creative takes time to “think” and prepare a bid, adding hours or days of delay.
- Second Call (The Proposal): A formal presentation where the creative walks the client through deliverables, trying to justify the price.
- The Verdict: The client responds with yes, no, or the dreaded “maybe,” a time-vampire of a response that Do says is worse than a definitive no.
This entire dance is built on a foundation of fear. The creative fears they will price too high and lose the job, or price too low and leave money on the table. The client fears they will be taken advantage of. The result is a process defined by opaqueness and discomfort, a state in which no one is likely to make a confident decision.
“When you're in an uncomfortable state,” Do asks, “are you more likely to make a positive decision to spend money or less positive?”
The answer is obvious. The solution is to stop this convoluted, fear-driven process entirely. It’s time to rip the bandage off.
The Fundamental Reframe: Value vs. Price
The entire system of pricing creative work is broken because it operates on a flawed premise. We believe our job is to convince a client of our value. It is not. The fundamental principle that unlocks any successful pricing conversation is this: the buyer determines value, the seller determines price.
Do is unequivocal on this point. “You get to determine the price. They get to determine value.”
This is not a semantic game. It is a profound shift in perspective. Your role is not to impose your sense of worth onto a client. It is to discover what the client already finds valuable and align your price to that reality. When you internalize this, the entire sales process transforms.
Do uses the example of NFTs to illustrate the point. A seller can believe their non-fungible token is worth $10,000, but if a buyer sees no value in it, the seller’s belief is irrelevant. The buyer’s perception is the only one that closes a transaction. “To you it is, but not to me,” Do says, channeling the buyer’s mindset. Value is subjective, and the power of that subjectivity lies entirely with the person spending the money.
So if the client holds the key to value, your entire job in a sales conversation changes. You must stop talking and start listening. The goal is not to present, pitch, or persuade. The goal is to ask questions and uncover the value that already exists in the client’s mind.
The problem is that most creatives are so eager to jump to solutions, to talk about deliverables, that they never properly diagnose the problem. They sell graphic design, layouts, and project management. They sell a list of activities instead of a business outcome. This is a crucial error that commoditizes their work and forces them to compete on price.
The focus needs to shift from your activities to their objectives. The entire sales process, Do argues, should be an investigation guided by one question: “What is valuable to you?”
This requires a new level of communication, one that is less about art and more about business. It is about understanding that clients, especially business clients, operate in a quantifiable universe. While you may think in terms of art, style, and brand, they think in terms of metrics, ROI, and bottom-line impact. Your job is to bridge that gap. This is the very essence of the value-based pricing strategy, a concept explored in depth by experts like Ron Baker in his masterclass on price and value.
When you understand what the client values, selling becomes easy. You are no longer pushing a product; you are co-creating a solution to a problem they have already defined and prioritized.
The Value Conversation Playbook
To have this conversation, you need a framework. Do lays out a simple but powerful model for uncovering a client’s true priorities. It's not about asking about budget right away, a common mistake that can shut down the conversation. It's about understanding the business case first.
The questioning starts with a simple, powerful word: why.
“Why is this important to you? What business problem does this solve? How does this improve your bottom line?”
These are not questions about deliverables. They are questions about impact. If a client says they want a new website, the amateur asks about features. The professional asks why the new website is a priority *now*. If the client says it's to sell more widgets, you are on the right path.
But you cannot stop there. You must quantify the goal. This is where Do introduces his framework of the two B’s: what is the Baseline and what is the Benchmark?
The Baseline is where the client is now. The Benchmark is where they want to go.
The conversation goes like this:
- You: “So you want to sell more widgets. How many more?”
- Client: “We want to double our sales. Go from 1X to 2X.”
- You: “And over what time span do you want to achieve this result?”
- Client: “Six months.”
You have just established a clear success metric. The next step is to attach a monetary value to that metric. Be direct and frame it hypothetically to reduce pressure.
“If you were able to double your sales of said widgets,” Do coaches, “what would that do for your business?”
The client might respond that it would generate an extra $100,000 a month in revenue. Now you are no longer talking about the cost of a website. You are talking about a project with a potential $1.2 million annual upside. This is the moment to start thinking like a business advisor, not just a designer. You need to clarify the numbers.
“Is that net or gross?” you ask. If they say it’s gross, you follow up: “What are your net margins?” If their margin is 25%, you’ve just uncovered that the project could generate $300,000 in pure profit for their business in the first year.
Now, when you propose a fee of $30,000, $50,000, or even $100,000, it is no longer an exorbitant cost. It is an investment representing a fraction of the potential return. The price is anchored to the value you have mutually defined. The client’s perception of your fee is completely transformed. They are no longer weighing your price against a competitor’s price. They are weighing your price against the massive financial gain you’ve helped them articulate. This is the core of effective sales training: anchoring to value, not cost.
Applying the Framework to Intangibles
The immediate objection from many creatives is, “This works for a website, but what about a logo? You can’t measure the ROI of a logo.”
This, Do argues, is a failure of imagination. The process is exactly the same.
When a client says they need a new logo, your first question must be, “Why do you need a new logo?” They will likely give a vague answer about needing it for their website, social media, or marketing materials.
This is where you must practice what Do calls intentional listening. Listen to their words and redirect them back to the business problem. Don’t get lost in the details of applications. Ask again: “Why is this important for your business?”
Eventually, they will land on a goal. Perhaps they’ll say, “It’s going to help me get noticed.”
This is your entry point. Instead of accepting this and launching into a sermon about why logos are important, you must challenge the premise. You do this not to be difficult, but to be of service. Your job is to help the client get clarity on their problem, even if it means talking them out of hiring you.
Do roleplays the response: “Of all the things we can do to get noticed, let’s list them.” You then brainstorm a list of options with the client:
- Running ads
- Social media marketing
- Gaining a following through content
- Promotions and giveaways
- Collaborations
- Hiring a PR firm
- Doing a publicity stunt
As you build this list, something becomes glaringly obvious. The thing you sell, the logo, is not even on the list. It’s an afterthought.
This is a powerful moment. You can now hold up a mirror to the client. “Of all these things that you can do to get noticed, does it make sense for you to do this one?” you ask, pointing to the logo.
You are forcing them to justify the project to you. This is a complete reversal of the typical sales dynamic. Now, the client has to argue why the logo is the most critical lever to pull. They might say, “We’re already doing all that, and we still need a better logo,” or “We can’t run these ad campaigns with our current terrible logo.”
When they start selling themselves on the solution, you know you are back in business. They have connected the intangible deliverable (a logo) to a tangible business need (enabling their marketing efforts). Your job was not to sell them a logo. Your job was to help them understand why they needed one. This service-oriented mindset is key to building an authentic personal brand.
“Stop selling, start serving,” Do insists. “Be of service to someone. They will sell themselves. It happens every single time.”
The Psychology of Scarcity and Service
So if this process is so intuitive and effective, why don’t more people do it?
The answer is insecurity. Creatives are afraid that if they challenge the client or suggest alternatives, the client will simply walk away. “You ever hear that expression, ‘if you love something, set it free’?” Do asks. “Set the client free, baby. Let them fly.”
This is not just a philosophical platitude. It is a powerful business strategy rooted in human psychology. We want what we can’t have. We are repelled by what chases us. As pricing and sales authority Blair Enns has famously stated, desperation is repulsive.
When you chase a client, desperate to make a sale, you communicate low value. When you are willing to walk away, to hold your service to a higher standard, you communicate high value and scarcity. The author and business advisor David C. Baker defines confidence in business as the point when your opportunities exceed your capacity to do the work.
When you have 35 opportunities and can only take on three projects, your confidence skyrockets. You become a discriminating seller. You are no longer trying to close every lead that comes your way. You are qualifying them to see if they are a good fit for you. This shift is transformative.
You begin to understand that you are not for everyone. “All these people I don’t want,” Do explains, gesturing to an imaginary crowd. “These people I want. If you don’t fit here, you deserve someone who’s going to be excited and passionate about what it is that you do. I’m just not that person.”
This posture of detached service creates an irresistible pull. By holding the client’s needs above your own need to make a sale, you build immense trust. You are no longer a vendor; you are a strategic partner. This is a central theme Blair Enns explores in his frameworks, which are essential for anyone wanting to move upmarket, a topic discussed in detail during his masterclass on budget conversations.
The fear of losing the one client in front of you is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It leads to behavior that repels that very client. The path to higher fees and better clients is paved with the courage to serve, to challenge, and to let go.
Ultimately, the conversation about price is a conversation about value. And the conversation about value is a conversation about business impact. Your job is to learn how to speak that language, to move from the abstract realm of creativity to the concrete world of results.
Stop being a freelancer, an order-taker who sells their time for money. Become an independent business owner who solves expensive problems.
The next time a client asks you for a price, don't retreat into a spreadsheet. Don't hide behind a proposal. Look them in the eye and ask them why it matters.
TRANSCRIPT
the buyer determines value the seller determines price you get to determine the price they get to determine value so when we're talking to clients we need to know what they find to be valuable right and when we find that selling becomes really easy if the client asks you how will I measure that
I'm going to tell you the phrase that's going to save your life what is up everybody thank you very much for being here as part of adobe Max 2023 this is the first year and which I've actually spoken at the stage so I was super excited but I couldn't say I was excited
cuz you notice the first day's keynote everybody was excited so I'm like I need to say something a little different but today what we're going to do is we're going to talk about how do you price your work how do you put a value on a thing that's intangible and it's something that
people in the creative space especially suffer through and if we don't learn how to have those kinds of conversations we will forever be on the wrong end of the negotiation it gets really emotional for us we have an uncomfortable relationship with money and I want to try to get through this okay so
I wrote some questions up on the board here just to kind of kick uh kick start the conversation which is how do you price your work and how do you how do you measure this because if we can't quantify it it becomes very difficult for us to communicate to someone who thinks in
a quantifiable Universe you think in the realm of art style class taste upskill brand very intangible things so I would like to have a conversation with you today and hopefully shed some light on this and give you actionable tools to you can apply literally the next time you have a conversation with a
client about the price of your work how does that sound good all right energy level's not so good today the internet's like he's talking to nobody he's talking to his son there's nobody here okay great all right so who here does a thing for themsel that they have a difficult time negotiating or
communicating the value of that thing to another person anybody here okay great so we need to get the microphone to you and we'll start talking okay you do know the drill you you will be on camera you will be recording for all of history and time so don't worry it'll be okay sort
of okay and you the best moments where people were really tough with me and they get to be that person and you have millions of some fans I guess you maybe not your fans but you have millions of people looking at you I work with creative Services I do my own freelance stuff
and then I also help with an agency and pricing their work and I think there's two different models that we use you're you're not an invited person are you you work for right I do both I I do fance and I work for somebody okay so let's just talk about your Independent Business
okay no one of the words I would like for us and I use it too I'm sorry because it's the part of the par Lance and is for us to eliminate the word freelance I have a whole bit on this I'm not going to bore you with it but let's call ourselves independent
business owners or a business with a with an employee of one that's fine because a freelancer is a person who sells their time for money Works in somebody else's rules and is hacks differently it's all very different okay I know it's the C popular term that we all use but maybe if we
keep using it the wrong way we'll never get out of this okay all right so Nick is an independent business owner right and what do you sell I sell graphic design and layout and project management it's all it's all part of the Independent Business like that you're doing all of the half all
right Nick has answered this question exactly the way I hope would he sells rainbows he sells everything okay so he said graphic design layouts and then he started listing out like 15 more deliverables okay so the first problem is we need to like hone this into something we want to focus this beam
of Light which is great but what what we know is the more complicated you make something sound the harder it is for somebody to remember it tell someone else and for many of you word of mouth will be your most powerful tool to get other people to hire you to create more opportunities
because what you want to do you want to have more opportunities opportunities than capacity right everybody understand this concept this is um David C Baker concept your confidence is when your opportunities exceed your capacity to do the work so right now if you have one opportunity to do a job your confidence is
probably not great but if you have 35 opportunities and you know you can only do three projects your confidence will go up by a ratio of like 30 over three which is your confidence score will be 10 the goal in running any business is to have more opportunities than capacity so what we
do is we drive down capacity our ability to do the work and we drive up the opportunities right make sense everybody this is basic stuff supply and demand so whenever possible we want to create artificial scarcity if we can and you don't have to be artificial about it so scarcity works in your
favor here everybody understand this like when when there's a line to get a t-shirt and and they can only process so many people at a time the line gets really long and then other people walking by who don't even want a t-shirt or a print get in that stupid line because we're all
sheep old you all understand that and then you get the shirt like why do I wait in line for 35 minutes the shirt I could have got for like $1 down the street less if you go to the Fashion District and my time is worth $60 like our mind doesn't even work anymore
cuz like free shirt let's go get a free shirt okay so when we can signal to other people there's more demand than in this capacity we will do something good for ourselves and we start to go on the right side of this this is business economics 101 we understand that so what we
want to do is we want to focus your ray of sunshine R life we really need to do this so we can burn a hole and that's the focus part okay so of all the things that you do you do sorry if we were to list it all in piece of paper and
we went to your accountant your bookkeeper whoever I said of all the things that Nick does what is driving the biggest revenue for his business what would they say solving problems no you got more abstract I know what you're trying to do you're trying to make me draw like a whole scene a
cloud now we're into a cloud that's what this is about it's this is an art class okay I think you're in control of the situation i' I've lost control and this always happens when I go live okay all right all right so he's like I solve problems what kind of problems do you
solve trying to communicate what's his name feelings visual Instagram that's what I got to work with he's trying to communicate feelings visually he's getting more abstract he started with graphic design then he's a problem solver now he's communicating feelings you were you at the keynote right you want emotion or do you want
specific I want to get pafic giving you both please give me something super specific like when when a person comes logo a logo thank God you got there okay Nick Nick makes logos that have a lot of feeling baked in it it solves a business problem I get all that up and it's
under the larger umbrella of graphic design now I've turned this thing into an umbrella okay rainbow umbrella okay so now we get that now people can remember that and they can okay that's fine so when you talk to a client Prospect and they ask you uh how much do you charge to make
said logo how does the conversation typically go give us the uh Abridged version the shortened version of this and I'll write it down somebody will reach out wanting some sort of logo made for a bakery a bakery okay let's stop there they're reaching out via social via Zoom phone call Old School KN
on your door it's usually like a friend of the friend or know me in the community referral so what we're going to call that WMA Word of Mouth advertising which is pretty much how most of you get business WMA right word of mouth advertising referral social media something like that okay so now
they're interested somebody has recommended you these are good things things are working in your favor and what is the next step just give me the high level step Discovery understanding what they need so what does Discovery sound like to you sitting down and trying to intake all of their needs for this logo
or what the brand is about and just understand really what is it what are the inputs that they want to include in the output okay it'll help me if you just give me the high level not the detail so we'll we'll we'll do a 30 minute call to see if we're a good
fit for each other okay is that okay yeah so that way everybody can plug in what you do specifically okay so let's say you do a 30 minute we're going to call this a fit check and I want to use that term very specifically a fit check because they get to check if
you're a good fit for them and you have to check if they're a good fit for you I'm sure there's a bunch of businesses you want nothing to do with just because they come calling so this is the second concept is we must be discriminating sellers of creative Services okay meaning all these
people I don't want you these people I want so if you don't fit here you deserve someone who's going to be excited and passionate about what it is that you do I'm just not that person everybody understand we we mistakenly believe that just because somebody comes calling we got to do their business
we think we have to close this client and it's not the case the more discriminating you are what are you doing you're communicating scarcity okay now 30 minute fit fit check when you get to the point when you're talking about money how does that usually go I'll get the fit check and then
kind of take time to deliberate and then come back and sit in another call where I'm like okay this is what you said you want right this is what I can offer you and then go over Logistics okay and then after that the price okay okay so what you're going to do is
you're going to punt there's the football to a second call because you need time to think right okay I don't want to presume do you watch our content um Sometimes some I yes okay but not as much as you should probably cuz we know do we know what he has already done wrong
everybody no cuz you're like I do the same thing brother what are you talking about I do the exact same thing okay okay we'll continue on this journey I'm going to map this out and then we're going to see all the ways correct later well yeah well course correct okay so you you're
like I'm ready let's do another call now you have I presume some kind of bid yeah yeah okay do you send the bid ahead of time no okay so you're like okay I have a bid for you and then you do what I walk them through what is included in the bid okay
and show them flexibility and if that's if that's necessary depends on the project and then okay show them just kind of affiliate the price with the product in the final deliverable Okay so you're going to tie the deliverable yeah that's a package everybody okay we draw this in a scale and we're going
to put a dollar sign here so we know this right so if they feel like they're getting more from this and less of this then they're going to do the deal yeah if they feel that they're doing more of this and less of this they say No Deal mhm okay you guys know
that show Deal or No Deal No Deal Deal we want to put more weight on this yeah okay so typically what happens then what's the next step I don't know for for me usually what is the right step I don't know the no you tell me your step this all been your step
for me for for me is we close the deal we get the bed and then you start protection of the project so they say yes and sometimes they say no yeah and then they so there's a couple options option number one is they say yes option two is they say no what's the
third option everybody what maybe I'll think about it let me get back to you let me talk to my partner right okay this is very good and so if we were to rank the kinds of answers that we can get what is the best answer we can get Nick yes yes it has
to be yes this is the number one answer on the board what's the second best answer I think the order that you have here is is the order some people think maybe is a really good answer and often times maybe it's just a Time killer this is a vampire they Su your time
I think it's worse than no it is worse than no okay so if we know we arrive here at the end why do we take so long to get here that's the question to give them a to give them a price back and get to the this negotiation stage okay well why don't
we do this now sorry I'm clarifying I'm trying to understand why you're if we know we need to talk about this why does it take so many steps to talk about this I think there's a balance between understanding what people want and then there's also this ex existential fear I love the truthfulness
speak to me is it am I pricing too much am I pricing too little does this you know there's there's a lot of yes head voices aniet all right let me ask you this for those of you who have worked with clients want to work with clients have a business do a side
hustle how many of you guys feel this existential fear this inner dialogue between am I worth it is it too much is it too raise your hand let me see you and everybody who has not raised their hand you're Liars that's okay we know who the honest people are check and make sure
the majority of you raise your hands the rest of you are rich correct rich in life you say rich in life brother I get you okay so here's what I want you to do okay the longer okay let me ask you a couple questions when you ride a roller coaster what is the
scariest part of a roller coaster you guys can yell at answer you can participate go ahead the Apex you know it's that part I don't think it's Apex it's a part where you Glide for half a second before you drop it's a moment of anticipation that creates the greatest fear but once you're
in the drop you're good you're probably like oh my God but you're okay it's all the other D D D D D D and then you close for a little bit you're going to feel the drop where your stomach goes into your throat right so if we know that could we just warp
to the part where we drop wouldn't that be better that's why there's rides that go straight up and they go straight down yeah and then people are really cruel have you seen those videos where they put them in the drop and they're like oh there's something wrong with the machine and they hit
the button and then people will freak out have you seen that video it's awesome cruel person loves his job I love that okay so what we want to do is we want to skip all this stuff because the hours the days and the minutes that transpire between the moment of first Contact to
this point creates more anxiety gives your brain more time to freak the F out is that okay all right so what we we want to do is we want to just rip the bandage off now before I tell you what the answer to this problem is and I will I promise I want
to ask you this question and the question is this where in the real world do you go when you want to buy something that you can't find the specs or the price where does this exist except for in the world of creativity I want to know I'm asking for real real estate real
estate really okay let's challenge this Matt also wants to make the video I like that okay Matt there are four homes for sale the the broker calls you or the agent calls you and says you want to go see these four homes what's your first question liar what do you mean tell me
can we throw the mic to him here can go ahead go ahead yeah just tell me more about them do they meet my criteria what is your criteria for buying a home well it has to have a good view uh it needs to be in a quiet neighborhood I want to have four
bedrooms a big Garden probably a pool keep going keep going yeah swimming pool gym gym in a house yeah homes come with gyms no it doesn't you buy your own gym equipment okay room for massage parlor what do you want no that that's good Zen Rock we're good there yeah okay that's all
you need to know that's the first you said what's the first question you asked yeah that's the first question I asked criteria yeah but criteria has a thousand sub questions to it what is the one criteria that matters the most you asking the wrong person no I believe I'm asking the right person
any person who does want answers quickly is the right person okay price is a a factor but it's not the first a factor yeah so I have a $25 million home to sell you you're going to go see that home no $15 million home no yeah it's the factor why are we pretending
now you can go up above that a little bit but not like three times usually they say what's your maximum budget right yeah but you know here's the thing there's this thing that's called red fin and you just search by price point and by neighborhood and it's really big it's not at the
bottom it's not like does it have a pool you know because we know that if it's out of your price point there's no point for you to go and see it it's a waste of your having time because I can show you beautiful homes that have all these things but the number one
criteria I would argue is if you don't know the price you're wasting my time and that's why almost all real estate shows your price only the homes that are more money than you can afford don't show you the price because at their point they're like if you have to ask a price you
cannot afford the home yeah scarcity that's where we want to be that's where we all want to be baby I do need to know the price send my agent in you know video conference me in cuz I don't even have time to see it right it's price so we failed next one what's
the other example in the real world where do you go to buy something where you can't find the price nor the product description anywhere I know there are a couple places but not a lot Eric Art Gallery Art Gallery yeah really the art galleries I go to the pric is right there there's
something called the price sheet artart Museum Art Museum not for sale I've been to art galleries without the price without the description they want to have a a discussion first before they tell you the price really how do you feel about that um as a artist or as a collector as a buyer
as a buyer um I think I don't like the initial like opaqueness of it but me neither yeah why is that tell me about your feelings I think that you should go to an AR Gallery also to enjoy the art but if you're if you're buying yeah you want to know the price
because otherwise you can move on to a gallery down the street that has the prices now I know you're an artist and you may have more knowledge about this than I do but I've talked to people who are on the boards of like Moma and things and they tell me how this art
World works it's totally crazy there's a there's like behind the Iron Curtain kind of thing and when you know what how it really works you'll be shocked almost all the art that you want to buy is already pre-sold you didn't even have a chance to buy it right so there's this whole way
of manipulating art and art prices and how it gets into Galleries and museums we won't go there but the feeling that you talked about this opaqueness does it make you feel comfortable or uncomfortable as a buyer as a buyer we're only talking buyer uncomfortable and anybody here feel really comfortable when they're not
given the information that they need to make a decision I didn't think so right so when you're an uncomfortable state are you more likely to make a positive decision to spend money or less positive yeah less positive yeah so this is the problem we're so scared to talk about money that we're creting
is uncomfortableness in opaqueness because the person who called up Nick they might need to know this right away and Nick not by by Design or by great intention or kind of Nefarious means is delaying that process for as long as possible and I know when I go to buy something if I need
to know that information I want them to tell me ASAP okay so we have to get over this idea that talking about money is a bad thing that it's uncouth to do this that you're some kind of money grubbing capitalist Pig and you might be and that's okay but we got to get
over that idea okay now look at this here this is the heart of what I'm going to talk to you about today is what am I getting relative to what I'm spending okay now who gets to determine value is it the seller or the buyer who gets to determine value buyer or seller
buyer okay I get some answers buyer anybody else want to say seller you do you want to say seller why can you hand her the mic here because the buyer doesn't know as much information as what the seller is providing let's test your theory okay um in a different class in a different
room we would do we would do like critical uh critical thinking skills and this is what we' normally do I'm going just take a second to do this okay before you say something the first thing you should do is think your thought try to just prove yourself right away if you can then
you don't think that thought okay so let's say again what you just said I said the seller knows more information about what they're selling than what the buyer is getting okay and therefore therefore the seller determines the value yes okay perfect okay do you buy nfts no you know what a non-fungible token
is you've heard of this thing that's the tech bro has been talking about for two years yeah okay aren't they really valuable um would you like to buy one I know people here who will sell you one right now as a buy you're I don't know much information so I wouldn't even think
to kind of but but the seller knows all the value yeah it's what you just said the seller knows value right so would you buy it you know the answer just say the internet's waiting um no why not can you repeat the question again all right well I'll just help you out here
okay you wouldn't buy the nft because you have no idea it has no valueable to Value to you yeah to you so who gets the determined value the buyer or the seller Eric's going to tell you it's worth $110,000 you're like well to you it is but not to me but you're going
to have other buyers wait hold the mic to your mouth but you're also going to have other buyers who actually know and each buyer has Target and each buyer has what the same decision decide if it's valuable to them right now not not Eric Eric can do whatever he wants so here's the
thing okay the buyer determines value the seller determines price that's what that see words do matter yes you get to determine the price they get to determine value so when we're talking to clients we need to know what they find to be valuable right and when we find that selling becomes really easy
okay all right are you come along with my party here yeah yeah okay good good cuz I'm going to run out of paper soon let me go to the next page here not that one okay everybody in order for me to get you to the promised land you have to understand the logic
argument here if somebody is not in agreement I would like for you to argue with me right now or forever hold your peace really I honestly I'd like to debate with you anybody you guys follow the logic so far okay first of all we're not Freelancers we're independent business owners we need to
talk about money early we need to understand what the buyer determines to be valuable so the entire sales process it doesn't matter what you're selling is what is valuable to you okay what is valuable to you when we know this everything is so easy now I'm going to ask you honestly how many
of you begin your sales conversations with a mindset I got to ask this question or something like this to understand what's valuable to them do that you do what do you say can you hand on the mic is Ethan go ahead Ethan yeah so like for any particular project like what is the
main thing you want to get out of this what do you want to achieve what is your kpi for okay this good this KP what you want to achieve what's your next question good job job um Al so yeah NE well whatever they tell me it's like I'll go like timeline how quickly
do you want to achieve that okay timeline okay what else and then like outside the logistic like at that point I have I'll just guesstimated a value based on oh you screwed it up already do you watch our Channel yes watch it again yeah okay but just watch this replay and we'll figure
it out all right okay there's a couple things uh Ethan got off to a really Good Start he really did right everybody where did he fail here what step is he missing he's missing a critical step come on guys I know it's day two we're tired I know come on we just need
to be sharp for one hour then you can go back to being you can back go back to being brain dead Okay hand hand the mic to Jen oh budget no no no no oh okay okay all right budget I want to I like no no you're missing something in here don't do
not listen to Dro who'll lead you down the wrong dark path all right you fell for it see don't trust Rego that's the moral of the story all right watch this he's like how what is kpi a key performance indicator no I know what it stands for oh but explain it to us
in normal terms oh so what they get out of it that's like not the thing like what B how their business gets better that's not really kpi okay there's another word for kpi we'll call it success metrics okay does that make sense those are terms okay we have to be careful about the
terms we use because they kind of um frame how we think about things how do you measure success that's a very important question to ask okay yeah let's just say they say I want a piece of art that's the that's what I want to get from you all right we're going get a
piece of art right because that's what what you guys sell how how valuable is this to them it depends on what their success metric is how have how has this conversation gone for you in the past so like say it's a website like what how many like how many new visitors to your
site do you want to get an X timeline okay and then what else how what else do you talk about um what issues are you having with your current website okay how do you want to improve your say CMS workflow CMS yeah okay what else anything else um what are your problems with
your current design what do you love what do you hate what do you want to fix okay this is pretty good yeah all right are we are we good here no we're not no we're not good yet okay all your questions are not helping them to surface what is valuable to them it
looks like it on the surface but I need to know so here's the question I would ask right oh you want me to build your website the question I would ask them is why is this important to you you're missing a why question in here why is this important to you what business
problem does this solve how does this improve your bottom line how does this generate more value to your business if you don't ask that question how can you find out this answer because problems with your existing design do not necessarily tie back to that how is your CMS working do not tie back
to that Direct indirectly it does what issue so when they tell you an issue you must say how is this impacting your business and if they say it doesn't what do you do cry then I don't offer that well you move on yeah move on then you say well what does matter to
you yeah the whole point is all our questions should be leading us to this Promised Land of what is valuable to you now here's the thing every prospect that calls you that reaches out whether they're buying nft an art piece a website a logo design a video a photo they already know what's
valuable to them first of all their time is very valuable so don't waste any of it they just don't know how to communicate that to you and they're scared that you're going to take advantage of them so we're going to do is we're going to enter into this conversation sensitive to that fact
and help them talk about the things they don't want to talk about so you have to have the verbal skills to ask these very basic questions that do not require fancy language why are we having this convers today Mr or Mrs client what problem are you trying to solve in your business how
would this improve whatever problem is you're trying to get rid of does that make sense yeah all right yeah so now we know what kind of questions to ask how many of you are asking that question today a couple of you good are you having success okay are you having any problems I
need to help you with can you communicate your value to the client can you I didn't say that right can you communicate your value to your client you have zero friction when it comes to the buying selling process let's go back to Ethan Ethan you're going to ask the clients why why are
we doing this why is this important to you what impact would this have what would they say then they said we'll sell more units perfect yeah you just got to a value question didn't you yeah is that the kind of questions you usually ask yeah but I can't seem to phrase it right
now okay fine you know what it's called is the brain fog of being live on Instagram and the Internet it's a real thing yeah people get like significantly not as intelligent when they're on camera okay so they want to sell more widgets right yep okay what do you do then well figure out
how they're selling them currently no do not go to Solutions stay in the problem what is valuable to you when you understand the problem clearly to the point in which the clients end you nod and like that's it that's it then you can talk about Solutions but not before then okay okay what
you want to stay in this uh diagnostic phase for as long as you can bear and you can bear a lot MH okay do not rush the solutions you don't even understand it they want to sell more widgets what question would you ask them what talk to me about the widgets no detailed
question we don't want that okay I'm going to help you out there's only one one word that's boxed up here and that word is value or valuable so we want to talk about value as much as we can until we understand the full value because in our mind we have this scale of
value this is the value one right here right the more we talk about this the heavier that box gets I'm going back to your videos now so you see what I'm saying you haven't really study the videos the way you need to yeah all right so stay on this you're selling more widgets
fantastic what's the next question how much are your widgets okay go on so if you no I'm trying to go to Solutions okay brain fog again yeah okay all right that's fine we're going to keep moving on okay so does any does any you want to Ali oop have somebody help hand the
mic to him go ahead say your name Kristoff Kristoff Christof kristofh okay what do you want to say no I mean I would have said how many more widgets no like how many more could be a question so you have something to calculate actually value back to Value it's pretty logical right okay
hold on to the mic okay if you want to sell more widgets how many more this's a symbol I think it's a is it a Greek symbol Delta what is the difference that's what we want to know cuz there are clients here and they want to go to here yeah yeah so what
is the Delta between where you are and where you want to be it's a very basic question so Ethan would ask okay how many more widgets you want to sell and they he they can give it to you as a 2X a 1.3x x a 6X whatever they can just give you a
number most people will not say 6X cuz they know they're going to walk into a value trap okay and then you just say back to them and this is hypothetical it's a beautiful way to phrase something if you achieve this how much would that how much would that what impact would that make
on your business it's a hypothetical it's an easy question to ask answer if you were able to double your sales of dead widgets what would that do for your business oh I'm going to make another $100,000 a day a week a month a year they're like oh a month then you should be
grinning from ear to ear like the chest your cat right there but don't show it to them on the outside just Stone Face the whole thing $100,000 a month is that net or gross you got to talk like a business person right now you know if you don't know what that means look
it up is that gross or net just just you only need to know a few terms everybody okay they say that's fantastic it's gross and you're like that's gross what are your net margins talking like a business person 25% net margins oh you're okay fantastic so by my math you're talking about 25k
a month times 12 that's a lot okay you've just done the value conversation okay so you're here at 1X widgets you want to be here at 2x widgets over what time span do you want to achieve this result okay 6 months what makes you believe you could do this we got a new
product we the website needs fixing we know that our conversion rate now you have a clue our conversion rate is say 2% and if we just converted at point or that's not 0 2% we can just convert it to 3% we're going to do great that is something as a web designer developer
you can work on day in and day out you measure that every single time you do some AB split testing it don't matter what the site looks like at that point all you care about is what they care about what is valuable to you okay so I'm going to sum this up in
a very simple way and I'm just open up to Q&A okay the two B's you have to master what is the Baseline and what is the Benchmark where are you now and where do you want to be now if you're an experienced professional which I assume you are an experienced professional if they
say we want a 17 exus in 30 days and you're like wait a minute spider sense's going off that don't sound right this sounds like Fantasy Land I cannot promise you results do not sign up for work that you know you cannot do that would make you complicit in some something wrong okay
you're going to stress out and that's a kind way of putting it you're going to get yelled at in about 30 days when this doesn't work so you have to say well um what in the past makes you believe that this can be done no no let's bring this to reality you're a
business adviser at this point why don't we set more realistic goals in a time in 30 days I think we should try to go for 1.2x is that reasonable yes it is how much would I then you go through this whole thing again so if you want to have a more successful smooth
frictionless conversation about pricing your stuff you have to find out what is valuable to the client in real terms now you've seen me do this before I didn't know what's going to happen you're well Ethan builds websites it's easy to measure value but what if you do a logo where you can't measure
the value is that what you're thinking Nick just say yes yes so now what are we totally screwed who here sells logos raise your hand okay everybody who sells a logo let's put our brains together how can we structure an architect this conversation with something that's very intangible like brand or logo cuz
we don't know how to measure that sometimes okay we're going to stick with a logo now we need to price a logo cuz I want to send you all home soon to be able to have this conversation to have it frictionless to be able to charge 2 3 4 10 x of what
you charge today and send me a small 10% of that is that fair they won't nod now Mark they're like no it's a verbal contract isn't it so tight I give you free information help you 10x your business and you're like that's why I don't like to work with designers you cheap bastards
all right logo logo let's charge for logo okay you know um I was talking to Sean Sean canal and he said scared money don't make money I see a lot of scared money right now scared money don't make money all right how do we measure the value of a logo so let's take
this conversation again talk to C I need a logo what question should we ask huh why because I want to know the answer no I just messing out with you can you say more than just one word answer yeah uh why do you want a new logo what do you think it's going
to do for your business okay hey pretty good somebody's watching videos right so why do you need a new logo for business do you ever ask that question I do what do they say um they oftentimes just kind of reiterate a lot of like what they think I think everyone says they they
say we we need it for social media we need it for our website we need it for our marketing um all that kind of stuff and what do you say then I usually then start trying to Pivot the conversation to why they got into the business in the first place and who they
are you're doing so good before J oh my God you only watch the first half of the video so you know what she's this is just like my wife my wife's also named Jesse by the way Jesse love you babe all right I'm like honey uh these are the 17 steps you need
to do this right step one step two I got it I got it I got it babe and when it doesn't work I'm like babe I'm trying to tell you how to do this right yeah so you're like I watched the first part Christian talk about value see you I got this AC
it right watch a long time come on Jesse you make me pull a muscle here all right will Patterson hand hand the mic to will will will knows I think I hope will represent here go ahead all right what's the question I'll be on the jet like is still real Chris his hair
is up but his mind is not that's about right okay all right no I I w't put you on the spot it's okay another logo person when you're asked this question why do you need a logo and that go social media marketing website what's the next question you should ask to focus on
this part bring it back there okay let's get let's give it to Jen what results are you looking for like what's the measurable Benchmark that we're that those are going to like so social media for instance so you ask me why do you need logo Chris and I say to you um we
need to use it for social media marketing and our websit so these are what we call like applications okay applications there's a rule here everybody you want to practice intentional listening do you know what that means intentional listening you listen to every word that they say every single word you don't inject new
words you don't misinterpret you don't try to repackage right so when you ask that question why is this important for your business and you said to help me get noticed and then you said uh goldfish now what okay okay okay so why is getting notice important what is it going to do for
your business to be more noticed it's going to help me sell more widgets see then you get right there you introduce a new word and you want details we don't want to go into details you designers you're all freaking so obsessed with details it's like you got an OCD with details or something
we only get into the details when we go make the stuff when having a high level conversation you keep it high level you want to get noticed why is noticing import into your business because I'm going to sell more stuff what kind of stuff you sell now you're right back over here okay
now there's this other way of approaching the question is you get them to prove to you why it's important to them all right little reverse psychology here okay don't tell your clients this I'm going to tell you or say this all right if you tell your clients this and you say you heard
it from me then you can't use it on them okay here's what you do I I do this often I'll say something like in my experience clients come and ask us to make new logos often times they do not need a new logo they're told like it's going to help with X Y
and Z and it's not always the case in fact I'm not even sure your logo is bad why do you want a new logo what are you going to say now I don't like the logo I have why not what's wrong with it it's not getting me widgets it's not getting you what
widgets I'm not selling widgets with and you think the logo is going to sell you widgets the logo is going to help me to get notice my widgets notice so that people will buy them all right let's do this we're going to go down this Rabbit Hole okay okay you guys remember this
I know you guys are all like fish brain right now okay your goal is to get notice yes yes okay I need you to stay in character if you break character it'll break the internet okay your goal is to get notice right is that true yes why' you think about it for so
long because it's not the the true goal the true goal well the true goal is to sell widgets but in order to sell widgets I need to be noticed that's fine okay okay let's just stay focused on this of all the things that we can do to to get notice list them for
me please what can we do to get notice uh some ads ads perfect what else um you know how to get notice help her out everybody what what does that mean social media social uh I mean gain a following gain a following okay we'll call this what social marketing social media marketing okay
smm social media marketing what else don't PIV it right now stay on notice I think gaining Authority in whatever it is that's the result of getting notice okay how do we get notice we are in the wrong conference Hall we don't know how to to get noticed here everybody aren't you here to
get noticed to learn how to get notice to capture attention come on guys do long how do we get notice What We Stand Out you want my jacket off get naked naked this is the mother social media dragons here what are you doing Rel okay all right all right we have a little
problem here okay hold on hold on I I want all your answers this is great this is the stuff for internet fodder okay this is perfect I actually really enjoy the painful process of extracting information from you the most awkward way possible I really do I really do those of you who have
been able to grow some social media following what have you done connection okay post who said said connection that's just an abstract concept Rel watch this okay remember I said practice critical thinking everybody before you say it out of your mouth hole ask yourself can I prove myself wrong if you can close
the mouth hole no because why I'll tell you why okay I'm going to run a social media marketing class I'm going to help you grow your followers to 200,000 followers and you come and the whole conversation like you need to make connections you going to be happy with that oh they need to
be meaningful no you're going to kick me in the face and say what that's all you can tell me make connections of course What's That Brand so you guys are branding okay okay okay there we go now we got an action again you can give away stuff and there's another way for that
it's called promos you can run promotions right yeah you can do collabs you guys heard of these things you can you can do sponsored posts you know you can pay other people to talk about you right you can hire a PR firm to get more attention remember the pr firms you can do
a publicity stunt you can do con who said that Jess you got all smart all of a sudden you out of the brain fog just like let's dig deeper into this it's like come on all right now you understand okay are we good there's lots of things here what's missing from this list
sh okay look my team you are not allowed to participate if we know each other if you have my phone number if we're in the DM keep your mouth shut for a little bit let the awkward audience work through the problem you know what I love my wife she goes sometimes to my
workshops and my classes and I'll ask her what do you have she's like I have the answer I'm a baby you've been through this 14 times if you don't have the answer today we in trouble babe we in trouble our kids have no shot in the universe all right so our people calm
to garon down all right come down all right we're missing something what are we missing a logo logo isn't that weird that the thing that we sell to get attention is not even on the list it didn't even occur to us to put it on the list uhoh we have a problemo so
if a says oh I want a logo it's going to give me notice how should you respond um I'd ask if they tried any thing else that's on that list what list the list that we just oh so you okay they say they need a new logo it asks did you try promotions
or giveaways perfect okay so what we're supposed to do is we're supposed to hold a client's needs above ours that's what it means to be of service to someone and if you're here to sell logos and the answer is clearly not a logo you're not supposed to keep selling that anymore in fact
you should not be selling at all the main objective of having a sales conversation is to help the clients get clarity over their problem and once we get cleared of the problem we can say oh there's a misalignment it doesn't fit anymore okay so when they say yeah I want to get more
notice and that's why I need a logo it's your duty and obligation if you're running an ethical business that is in service to others to say of all the things that you can do like running ads doing promotions publicity content marketing social media and a logo does it make sense for you to
do this you do not want to decide this for them like you know what what is your name Tina Tina Tina okay Tina we're already doing all that I still want this you're back in business baby you're back in business all you have to do is say it they get to decide is
that cool cool cuz like for example like you go see a doctor and the doctor says we needed to do surgery but you should probably have three other you know conversations I already had those doc I want your opinion you come highly recommended I'm ready to go baby so like okay operate let's
go okay so they say you know what we're already thinking about this and all of them told us you need a better logo they're arguing for you now that we're not going to run on these ad campaigns is publicity stunt when we're going to have to change our logo in 3 to six
months why is that it's going to be very expensive to change a logo that is not good they're selling themselves again you understand how this is going the problem why this conversation usually doesn't happen with you cuz you're in your hamster wheel I got to sell logo I got to sell logo I
got to prove it own I got to explain all the reasons why logo is good that's why I've said before and clearly you guys are not listening to me stop selling start serving be of service to someone they will sell themselves happens every single time I'm getting a nod from the LA girl
I got why you hiding I just gave you I just threw a think that you don't have to okay it's not bullets you don't have to dodge them okay right she's a great you guys understand this is what we should do so then the real question for you is this not my team
team be quiet why aren't you doing it what's holding you back clearly this is not rocket science I'm not showing you some weird stuff not some choke hold you've never seen before it's just conversation I want to know why Adobe Max 2023 we're going to solve this problem right now right here we're
going to end this problem forever for all creative people why if you know this it's super intuitive why aren't you doing it please help me insecurity what are you insecure about every true I get a lot of face there Mar I think you touched on it it was that existential fear is it
the insecurity of if you ask this and you try to tell them you don't need this that they'll actually take your advice and leave yeah yeah you ever hear that expression if you love something set it free if it doesn't come back it was never yours set the client free set them free
baby let them fly they'll fly face into a car that come crawling back with a limb I'm so sorry I meant for you to design the logo not discount logo designer my bad and you're like well I don't hold grudges so we'll just charge you three times as much it works it works
send up free all right let me tell you another thing about human psychology what do we want the most what do we want the most the things we can't have what do what do we want the least the things that keep chasing us human psychology later today for those of you that are
single ready to mingle you're going to be at some event somebody's going to be hey how's it going what's your number like can we connect get away from me creep right and then there's that person who too cool for school they don't even pay you any mind you're excuse me do I know
you can we you see what I'm saying it's human psychology but what you do is you're chasing them I heard Blair n say this wrap it up you said you I could have as much time as I want okay 232 okay we're going to wrap this up okay Blen said this when you're
desperate you're very repelling you might even be repulsive don't be repulsive if we serve the client if we find out the bench marks and the Baseline about what they want and we really listen with intention we only use what they tell us and we keep asking asking the important questions we will find
out what is valuable to them and in fact many people who buy a logo what are people who want to spend a lot of money on logos why do they want that why do you want that Amy do we have to go somewhere is that why no they don't they're going to be
here all leave if you don't want to make money that's fine by me all right so if you want to stay stay all right it's not us oh okay oh okay okay all right Alex coming out and buy some merch okay anyways all right so here's the thing how many of you care
about your image raise your hand if you do and if you don't you should I mean let's work on it a little bit all right so people who are very image conscious care about their image and the logo is one of the most important aspects of their image would you agree like when
I buy a shirt and it's a ugly logo I put the shirt back I'm sorry I just not going to do it I'm I'm very um snoody that way all of it has to go together so you want people who are very image conscious like they care about every little thing they're detail
Ori oriented they're Discerning buyers of high quality Goods then what you have to do is you have to look at your you have to look at yourself you have to look at your website you have to look at your grams and everywhere else you post you have to ask yourself am I attractive
to that kind of person who is a Discerning buyer I don't know why I drew a hat sorry my hand got out of control of high quality goods and you have to be really honest with yourself I see your websites I've seen them they're not that good so what you can do is
you can use the power of design presentation mockups photog graphy very important to make your logos look like premium so you attract premium buyers okay I'll tell you the mistake you make right now okay and you could just nod your head if you're guilty okay here we go here's the number one mistake
that you make and it's not going to seem like a mistake you're just going to drop put your logos like this on a grid that's all you're going to do so what you're doing is you're just selling the mark and not what the mark feels like in appli ation so what you need
to do is because these people don't have a great imagination you have to close the imagination Gap you have to put the logo on things for them so they're like wow oh my gosh this is a really important logo we want this logo on everything you follow so you use photography all the
mockups generative tools it doesn't really matter how you get there you have to AR direct the heck out of this I don't know if you know this but Apple spends an incredible amount of money taking photos of products that they do not exist they do not exists that phone that's on the box
that is not the phone that is 35 phones past it together so it looks a certain way the highlights the Shadows the reflections no one photograph can capture all of that how do I know I have friends that shoot for Apple they're selling you this dream you know Steve Jobs famously walked into
an Apple Store and said why don't my products look like the way they do on the ads he doesn't realize an army of retouchers worked on this he said change all the lighting in the store and that's why their products look like the way they do there's a beautiful soft box over all
their products they take those things into consideration so it's closing the Gap so what you're doing is you're selling the Romance of the logo of what it can be not the actual making of it because as you saw with text to vector it's over only if this is what you sell I sell
the conversation I sell the dream I sell the potential I sell my listening skills the making of it is the easiest part what what are we making why are we making it that's the hard part that's what they'll pay you for does that make sense okay I'm overtime let's spend more time what
do you want to know what else you want to know uh especially with logos like some sometimes it's not even about not getting noticed it's more about like a brand refresh or like something to like keep up with culture or something like that how do you measure things like that Lucas wasn't here
the whole time were you uh just say I wasn't I was it yeah somebody help him out somebody answer that question I believe we already talked about this so they want to do a refresh how do you talk about the value of a refresh hand hand the mic over to Jen if Jen
doesn't get to I'm going to throw myself off a bridge Jen tell them you want them to sell you the refresh so basically you tell us how this me getting on the bridge it's reverse psychology you want to tell them ask and tell them all the things that they I want you to
do it literally don't tell us the concept of it Lucas wants to know he goes I wasn't here okay so Lucas's question is is um I want to refresh and he's come to me and wants to refresh okay hand on the mic hand on the mic we're going to have to go through
this painful process it so I run a company I have a logo it's outdated I need something more modern I need something more fresh to just give it a better look to keep up with current trends so how how do you think that this is going to this refresh is going to increase
your business buiness or get you more noticed did he use the word notic noticed did he no I didn't um you know from our clientele we've been hearing a lot that our company feels outdated um we might it feels like we might be falling behind a little bit um as far as uh
just current trends and we want to stay on top of that what is it that has made you think your logo is how to become current or trendy um I want to say the font is outdated some of the shapes some of the gradients maybe we want to go no gradient just because
of current logos right now are not doing that are there other things that you've tried to be more trendy marketing wise yeah we try to do Tik toks we try to do X we try to do Instagram take it uh step it up with reals still not working okay can you can anybody
identify the problem here with with the way that the question's going anybody is this my original mic yes it is okay can anybody identify the problem okay uh Lucas hot mic over to her no no we need you just hand it hand it we all have hands most of us go ahead so
my name is Alex um I what's your name Alex Alex okay yeah feel like she was putting control in the client um and allowing him to kind of guide the conversation as opposed to using her expertise to guide it how how do you know that from listening besides because I said so what
did she do specifically to make you say that why why did you come to that conclusion it seemed like her questions were very open-ended and not specific okay that's the problem your question you're like on a fishing expedition you're all over the place here if you can do this right it only takes
one question you get the conversation down that shoot again you can see so we have to practice your ability to ask questions in real time cuz you know what happens people watch a role plays they write the script down no other human behaves that exact same way and you're like fumbling around this
is why it's not important to remember the scripts but to understand the concepts when you understand the concepts right so Lucas says I need a Rebrand a refresh you're like great why is the Rebrand refresh important to you he'll say whatever and you say is this going to impact your business at all
how so and you keep driving him into that you don't introduce new Concepts it's going to go all over Place does that make sense okay let's get it back to Lucas mik back to Lucas please all right so Lucas yes how is refreshing the logo going to impact your business or will it
uh just due to current trends we feel like our logo is outdated due to the color the fonts I understand you're speaking like a designer not like a client Okay gradients and like oh I don't want this client this is a control freak okay all right what would the client say uh simply
alarm's going off already come on I'm not trying to go to a business route is or is that what we're you go wherever you want to go I just say you can't talk like a designer okay let's say um it's been 50 years since I've updated the logo and we I feel like
as a CEO we look outdated to the public and I would like to change that okay as a CEO so you have a lot of brand equity in this thing yes so what kind of departure do you want to make from this a big one or a small one small one I still
want the I still want the public to recognize okay the company okay you just put yourself in a new class of clients now a client who's been in business for 50 years has hired a lots companies in between so now I'm on my jack up the price rate okay in my mind already
all right so we're talking about a big thing so have have you worked with other logo design firms before not specifically logo design you must have you've been in business for 50 years oh I'm sorry I thought you uh no I have it no I have it okay yeah no you have I
have you you're the CEO of a company that's 50 years old okay that means you're at least 50 years old yes cuz you didn't start when you were zero okay so you're an older gentleman okay distinguished okay right you know how to run a business you've worked with creative agencies before no yes
okay yes I have you're the CEO you said you're a CEO right yes okay stay consistent with your character okay okay what have you paid for this in the past 50 years ago I paid $2,000 okay so you've not touched this at all since then I have not okay have you hired any
creative Services recently uh for other things but not logo okay today if you had to redesign it what do you think the fair market value for this is you know 30,000 okay are we solving a $30,000 problem uh potentially so if you don't fix the logo you're only going to lose $30,000 is
that what you're saying uh no in the future if we keep on looking outdated we might fall off and people might not care anymore okay do you know how expensive it is to change a logo for a 50-year-old company website social media packaging letterhead uh uniforms trucks uh collateral of all kinds do
you know what expense you're going to encounter when you change your logo you must be aware of this yes yes how much are you going to spend in that to do all merch and all the branding uh roughly roughly $2 million probably yeah okay okay you're going to just spend $2 million in
the printing of this does this seem like good insurance against this spend no it doesn't all right you see the problem yes how much should we spend against that what do you think like I'll help you out what is 10% of $2 million uh I'm not you're a CEO dude uh what is
that $200,000 200 yeah sorry okay it's okay it's all right we're not mathem magicians here 10% is tough I get you all right $200,000 right okay okay is that a lot to you to spend yes it is sure why uh 2 million no all right you already I'm sorry two 200,000 stay focused
man yeah do you see that squirrel stay focused stay focused dude is $200,000 allowed to spend against $2 million of printing costs alone it does sound like it it does or does not it does in what universe is 10% % of something of the printing cost a lot of money it's only do
say things like that it's not it's only 10% okay so here's the good news I don't think we have to spend 10% okay but it's good to know that you're willing to spend $200,000 right coo yes so I'm going to go away I'm going to cook on this for a little bit I'm
going come back to you with a bid but let me just ask you this question before I go if you get a proposal from me yes that is south of $200,000 are you ready to move forward I would consider it yes what's the think about if it's south of 200,000 yeah you we
just said you you're capable you're ready to spend 200 if I submit a bid less than $200,000 would you move forward with that and you're like not sure so why because I'm not sure how your logo could how can I measure that your logo will be effective as far as going with you
what if I go with you how how can I um how can I ensure that the new logo will create the conversion that I need Oh I thought you were looking for brand refresh which you didn't mention anything about conversion should we talk about conversion uh we don't have to no no you
do you want to talk about conversion you're killing the audio right now by the way I could just see the Instagram followers just going like to nothing you're killing all of us come on okay okay let's do a timeout I love Lucas it's going to make a hot piece of content I guarantee
you it will yeah here's the problem Lucas is not a CEO of a multi-million dollar Corporation he cannot act like this he doesn't even know how to speak their language you see so now the role play is totally broken right so he's going all over the place and if this were me with
a real client I'm like I'm sorry um I think I have to like shampoo my cat I'm so sorry this is I think you need somebody it's not going to be me today right okay cuz I try to ask you a simple question and you're all over the place 2 million 200 10%
you this conversion refresh it's all over the place 2000 right you know maybe early set Alzheimer's coming on I do not know I'm not your guy I would never say that you guys right but you know it's not the right fit I want to feel good about working with you and you're so
unfocused right now yeah one day's conversion cuz my fear is I'll take your $200,000 you'll feel great and you'll tell me it's about bananas tomorrow and I'm like bananas we were working on a refresh then we're working in conversion now you saying it's about bananas I can't solve that problem right I need
you to know that you know the problem right follow yeah so you have to be brave enough to identify that and say very politely with a lot of diplomacy you know I'm sensing this is not a good fit you deserve someone who's going to be as passionate about your project As You Are
I just don't see myself being that person much respect to you I wish you well so does it end up not being about the measurements of if if a client is like how do I measure that it it doesn't even become about the measurement it's more about no I'll find a good price
all right this is a very good question by the way it's the smartest thing you said so far if the if the client asks you how will I measure that this is a really good one and we're going to end here okay how would I measure that what should you say back everybody
I only want the smartest people how will I measure that I'm going to tell you the phrase that's going to save your life hand him the mic how do you measure that now say it louder please how do you measure that now okay you're really close you're really close my God okay you
do okay okay give it a back I'm so excited what are your goals no he was much closer okay I'm going to teach you a secret okay it's three letters three letters and then you repeat back this statement remember I told you intentional listening do not introduce new words if he says how
do I measure that do not introduce the word goals you just change the conversation okay he was really close tan was really close you say I don't know how will you measure that you just ask right back what are you going to say then Lucas Mr Smarty Pants hand on the mic I
don't know how will you measure that um through relevance of uh well he'll give us a whole bunch of reasons how to measure it yeah okay that's the beautiful thing watch how do I know buying your product will make me happier I don't know what makes you happy ah okay how do you
know how will I know this will make me taller how what what size are you what you know you just say it right back to them in their exact language because the truth is listen to the question how will I measure that well I don't know how you measure things the only way
I can know is to ask you how you measure it m I don't know is a very powerful statement okay you should use it more often yeah and then you literally just repeat back what they say back to them that's it like a monkey you say right back to them do not change
the words don't say how will you measure your goals don't say how will you measure success don't say how will I how will you measure kpis just say it right back to them exactly the way they said it cuz they feel then you were listening to me when you a new word new
words have new meanings that's why it's a new word then you're not listening you're not paying attention and they want to know are you hearing me are you seeing me and when you do that their confidence goes up you follow yeah okay all right I wish I could stay longer I I I
can but somebody else needs to speak all right thank you very much for being here guys thank you see you next time
Enjoyed this? There’s more where it came from.
Get insights on pricing, value, and creative business.
You can unsubscribe anytime. By submitting, you agree to receive communications and to our Privacy Policy.